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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
One more time!

Your #798:

OPie, by your own admission you keep copying and pasting the same Chorazin/Bethsaida stuff over and over (expecting a different result :-). You should post it once and link to it to save bandwidth.

People point out flaws in your argument, though, and you need to address them by modifying it. "This is what you are desperately trying to avoid... and you can't" avoid modifying it. Of course, you may not have anything left when you do, but at least you will be responsive to your feedback. 8o)

  1. God grants us all the grace to repent.

  2. God is just. He takes into account the light each person has been given. In Luke 12:48 He says, "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

  3. God has foreknowledge of all things, but He does not share that foreknowledge with us, especially with Calvinists who think they know what He knows.

  4. The Bible does not tell us the final outcome of anyone. Augustine and Calvin may think they know those inhabitants of Tyre and Sidon are in hell now, but they don't. Neither do you. God in His mercy may have sent opportunities their way. Plus, He judges them individually.

  5. The people of Chorazin and Bethsaida (and only those who rejected His ministry of their own free will) will be worse off in the Day of Judgment than the people of Tyre and Sidon. How can that be if the result is eternity in hell for both? Are we to invent "hotter parts of hell" for this purpose? As I said, you do not know their outcome.

  6. You miss the point of what our Savior was teaching. Not that God withholds the grace to repent, but rather the consequences of rejecting the Greater Light.

  7. And so forth. Many more excellent points have been made.

In short, there are many flaws in your argument, and you have not proved your case.
931 posted on 01/24/2002 7:33:00 AM PST by White Mountain
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To: White Mountain
(In your 7 points, only one would be fatal to my case, as I think you will yourself see)... Here, I'll even demonstrate my point for you. You're welcome:

1.) God grants us all the grace to repent.

Argument Denied, on grounds that God knows how much Grace will actually result in a Man choosing Repentance, and He dispenses Grace variably, as He sees fit. With some, He rips open the heavens and manifests Himself to them in visible power and glory on the road to Damascus; with others He does not. God foreknew how much Grace would be required to predestine Sodom to a choice of Repentance (performance of miracles equivalent to Capernaum), and He chose not to, thereby predestining Sodom to Damnation instead. Your Argument fails.

2.) God is just. He takes into account the light each person has been given. In Luke 12:48 He says, "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

Argument Denied, on grounds that even if true, it is irrelevant. If Tyre and Sidon are burning even now in Hell, it remains true that harsher judgment is reserved to Chorazin and Bethsaida. Perhaps the fires of hell burn hotter for them; but if God predestined Tyre and Sidon to Non-Repentance by His own Election, you still have a doctrine of Absolute Reprobation and are merely arguing the details of the ultimate Judgment. Your Argument fails.

3.) God has foreknowledge of all things, but He does not share that foreknowledge with us, especially with Calvinists who think they know what He knows.

Argument Denied: incorrect premise. He certainly revealed one aspect of His foreknowledge in Matthew 11; He tells us quite directly that He foreknew the performance of Capernaum-equivalent miracles in Sodom would have predestined them to freely choosing Repentance. He chose not to, choosing to leave them instead in Non-Repentance unto Damnation. Your Argument fails.

4.) The Bible does not tell us the final outcome of anyone. Augustine and Calvin may think they know those inhabitants of Tyre and Sidon are in hell now, but they don't. Neither do you. God in His mercy may have sent opportunities their way. Plus, He judges them individually. ~~ 5.) The people of Chorazin and Bethsaida (and only those who rejected His ministry of their own free will) will be worse off in the Day of Judgment than the people of Tyre and Sidon. How can that be if the result is eternity in hell for both? Are we to invent "hotter parts of hell" for this purpose? As I said, you do not know their outcome.

As I said, this point alone would be fatal to my position -- if its suppositions were true. We know that Capernaum will be judged more harshly than Sodom, for this the Lord tells us; but unless we subscribe to the Mormon dogma that Sodom may have been offered a "second chance" after Death or even in Hell, it is otherwise not logically possible to escape Absolute Reprobation in Matthew 11.

Mormons can evade Absolute Predestination in Matthew 11. Christians cannot.

936 posted on 01/24/2002 7:50:32 AM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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