Posted on 01/20/2002 5:02:48 PM PST by CCWoody
I hope you are not serious...
According to Calvinism it is not the miracles that could get anyone to repent, they first have to be regenerated, and that comes from Predestination.
True or False, OP doesn't understand the Calvinist teaching of irresistable grace-
true!
Okay, yes...
And did God foreknow that His Non-performance of these miracles in Tyre and Sidon would result in their Non-Repentance unto Damnation? ~~ God has Omniscience
I'll take that as another "yes".
And did He not sovereignly Choose to Not Perform these miracles, which had as its perfectly-foreknown result their Non-Repentance unto Damnation, just as He foreknew? ~~ Yes, He chose not to, but that does not mean they did not have enough information to repent.(Rom.1:20).
BOO-YAH!!
Fine. For the purposes of discussion, we shall say that they had plenty of information and did not need to be regenerated and could have repented at any time out of their natural State and you have still just admitted the reality of Absolute Predestination. For you have admitted that God foreknew His performance of miracles would result in Tyre and Sidon freely choosing to Repent, and that His non-performance of miracles would result in them freely choosing Not to Repent, and that HIS CHOICE not to perform the miracles PRE-DETERMINED that their choice would be to Not Repent. Having the power to bring about their free choice to Repent, or their free choice Not to Repent, God's choice pre-destined them to choose Non-Repentance and eternal damnation.
The rest of the battle over Total Depravity, etc., I consider an irrelevance to the main point: you do not want to acknowledge Absolute Predestination.
And here you have admitted that God was able to decide before Time whether He would predestine Tyre and Sidon to Salvation (by electing to perform miracles so that they would freely choose to Repent), or predestine Tyre and Sidon to Damnation (by electing to NOT perform miracles so that they would freely choose to NOT Repent), and He elected to predestine them to Damnation.
As I said.... you just lost the war.
Idid answer them. I guess you think if you post a hundred more times I will be impressed?
According to Calvinism miracles cannot make anyone believe, because man is dead. They first have to be regenerated, so what is all the nonsense about the miracles. What Christ is saying is that the Jews have no excuse for not believing since they saw more then those cities condemned.
Again, I ask you, why are the Jews being rebuked for disbelief if they can't believe until God regenerates them first?
You lose-I win!
Nope. God predestines whether or not He is going to regenerate someone in the course of Created Time, and He also decides how he is going to regenerate them. And the performance of miracles can be one such Means of regenerating Grace, if God so decrees (God decides how His Power "works" upon a man).
But that's all besides the point. You've admitted: God's choice to NOT perform miracles in Tyre predestined that they would choose Non-Repentance and Damnation. So, God's decisions pre-determine what Man's decisions will be. Ergo, you have no defense against Absolute Predestination.
So, you do not see happiness in love? When you love you are not happy?
If ye know these things happy are ye if ye do them(Jn.13:17)
Nah. Let's just throw "calvinism" out the window and say that Man is not spiritually dead, not Totally Depraved, and can, of his own natural State, choose to Repent or Not Repent, without any need to be regenerated.
Nonetheless, you have admitted that God's choice to perform miracles in Tyre would result in them freely choosing Repentance.... and that God's choice to NOT perform miracles in Tyre would result in them freely choosing NON-Repentance.... and that he chose NOT to perform these miracles, which pre-destined them to NOT Repent, and be Damned.
Thus, give Tyre all the free will and natural moral competence in the world, and nonetheless God alone has pre-determined what their decision is going to be.
Oops... wasn't that the whole thing you were trying to avoid?
What! Let us say that TULIP is a hoax, because you just denied it!
We reject Unconditional election since it is not taught in Scripture, (Jn.3:16, Rom.10:13)
Sure. For the purpose of our discussion, we'll say TULIP is a hoax.
AND YET... you have still admitted that God's choice to perform miracles in Tyre would result in them freely choosing Repentance.... and that God's choice to NOT perform miracles in Tyre would result in them freely choosing NON-Repentance.... and that he chose NOT to perform these miracles, which pre-destined them to NOT Repent, and be Damned.
Thus, give Tyre all the free will and natural moral competence in the world, and nonetheless God alone has pre-determined what their decision is going to be.
Oops... wasn't that the whole thing you were trying to avoid?
I am glad I caught this. Someone said you had answered me 'masterfully' (you guys are always talking like that among yourselves).
You guys may talk about mercy but it is only in the context of one of the most horrendous views of God ever put forth, TULIP.
Thus, your expressions of grace, love, mercy are meaningless, since you attribute to God a coldness that only Calvin himself had. They are like most of Calvinist words-empty of any real meaning.
Yet, another cryptic statement by a Calvinist! But hey, since you are a Calvinist you do not have to actually explain what you say.
He meant, that you have excerpted my proposal that we excise all considerations of Total Depravity from our reading of Matthew 11:20-27, but have neglected to acknowledge that point against which you have no defense: That looking through history at the fact that Tyre would freely choose Repentance if He performed miracles, and would freely choose Non-Repentance if he did not perform miracles, God chose not to perform miracles and so pre-determined that the Tyrians would choose to Not Repent and be eternally Damned.
You have admitted that God's choices pre-determined whether or not the Tyrians would choose to Repent, hence, God absolutely predestines some to Salvation and some to Damnation of His own sovereign Will and His election to that effect pre-determines Man's choices to Repent or to Not Repent.
Before any of them had ever been born, God looked through history at the choice they would freely make if He did perform miracles ("Repent"), and the choice they would freely make if He did not perform miracles ("Not Repent"), and He chose that he would not perform miracles, which pre-determined that they would choose to not Repent, just as He foreknew. Thus, from before Time, God pre-determined their choice to Not Repent and predestined them to Damnation
I underserstand your arguement OP but you are adding to the scripture facts not in evidence. The only problem with the above statement is that the bible does not say tyre and sidon did not repent and were damned. There ultimate fate is not disclosed in Mt. You are assuming because Jesus did not perform miracles there they are damned.
What Jesus is saying if i may paraphrase: "Those that witness miricles and still do not believe are idiots deserving of Hell. I mean if I performed these miricles in Sodom, as wicked as they were, they would have believed and repents but you jews are being idiots."
God could come down right now and say "Hello OP I am God" and it would be easy for you to believe and accept salvation. It is harder to not witness miracles and still believe. Just because God does not hit me over the head on day and shout HERE I AM BELIEVE does not mean I am damned to hell.
P.S. You can lose the arrogance in your posts. It does not help your arguements. Also, I believe there is something in the New Testemant about being humble
pps. yes, I believe that even the people of sodom could receive God's mercy. Genesis says that God destroy sodom and killed most of the people, it does not (as you believe) say God through them in Hell to burn for ever.
Heavens, no. If God has not predestined to regenerate a sinner, then you could preach the Gospel to him all day and he will never respond to it.
But if you do not preach, you have denied him even the opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel. Thus, "his blood be on thy hands", for though he would never have taken the offered opportunity (being unregenerate), *you* did not even offer him the opportunity at all, as was your duty!! Hope that is clearer.
I hope I have somehow misunderstood you here.
I think you have. I speak not of some class of persons who would be saved if only they were preached the Gospel, but rather of Preachers who "share their guilt" in an ethical sense, for never having bothered to offer them the opportunity for salvation in the first place. They would reject, sure, but the Preacher would at least have done his duty.
You actually believe that Sodom is enjoying Salvation.
Amazing what people will say to pervert the words of Jesus in Matthew 11.
Your position is denied. Sodom is burning in Hell right now, and will never, ever get out.
Ergo, God knew what Election of His would pre-destine Sodom to everlasting Salvation (performance of miracles equal to those He performed in Capernaum, such that they would Repent); and God knew what Election of His would pre-destine Sodom to everlasting Salvation (NON-performance of miracles equal to those He performed in Capernaum, such that they would NOT Repent); And, having both options available to the power of His Omnipotence, God deliberately elected to pre-destine Sodom into the damnation of everlasting hell-fire, not to save it.
Case closed. These are Jesus' words in Matthew 11; now believe them, or hate them.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.