Posted on 01/20/2002 5:02:48 PM PST by CCWoody
You say, "oh, because in their free choice they rejected the gift offered." But wait, the price of all sin, even unbelief (or the rejection of the free gift), has been fully paid! So God condemns someone a 2nd time? Double jeopardy?
No. Sufficient for all, but effective for those whom He has made alive. GOD HAS THE FREE CHOICE HERE FOLKS!
Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
The gift of salvation and forgiveness was paid for, but never applied to the person who has not accepted it. So there is no need to condemn a second time.
Jesus said in John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
To say that payment is made for all sins, including the ultimate rejection of that payment...defies logic as well as the teachings of Christ.
Do you honestly mean to tell me that you think Joshua was not a regenerated believer when he made that statement?
Of course Joshua served the Lord. That's what regenerated spirits want to do -- Unlike unregenerate spirits.
It does, if God is in absolute control of the events, and those events pre-condition man's choices.
True, or False?
WOW that is my " most OT favorite scripture". Jorge the bottom line is there is a difference ..multitudes hear..but only few respond..why? What is the difference?
The question is not really about the choices we make ,but WHY we make the decisions we make . Why do some will to "come follow me" and some joke about going to hell??
In America almost everyone has heard the gospel , almost all know what the consequence is for failing to " come". Yet, they mock and laugh and think somehow they are immune to judgment . Or they have been deceived that salvation is just a matter of saying a few words at an altar call and they have time to "decide" to do that..
Most never will repent and turn and be converted..ever....not because time runs out ,but because they never "will "to. They do choose the god they serve,every day .They deny the cross. God did not predestine them not to make the choice.It was theirs all theirs
Do you honestly mean to tell me that you think Joshua was not a regenerated believer when he made that statement?
Of course Joshua served the Lord. That's what regenerated spirits want to do -- Unlike unregenerate spirits.
Do you honestly mean to tell me that you think Joshua was telling people to choose, but knowing full well that they were incapable of making a the choice?
Of course Calvinism forces such strained and abnormal readings of scriptures such as these.
In any case, free choice.. was the subject I was responding to and addressing in my post...but I noticed you removed the bold I placed on that part of the verse in your response...and then proceded to ignore my real point.
Exactly.
Our responsibility is to share the Gospel message and to live in obedience to the Word of God. God, in His mercy and grace, provided a solution to the sin problem of man even while man did not deserve it. That is the grace of God! It is still the responsibility of those who hear the Gospel message to make a decision to accept the grace and mercy of God.
We are to plant the seeds of faith and not to worry about the harvest. As much as you may not want to hear it, and after reading several of your posts, you do not have a clear understanding of what Calvinism really teaches regarding pre-destination. It is much more harsh and cold-hearted than you may realize. On the other hand, it matters not what the extreme Calvinists teach, if you have accepted Christ as your Savior, the rest is mere detail.
My goodness, you Calvinists are so far out that it is only by your fellow Christian's graciousness (and prayers that you may see the light) that you are accepted in the family of believers.
I for one, would like to see the Biblical justification that consuming alcoholic beverages is inherently sinful. This is from someone who at most will have an occasional glass of wine.
Perhaps I misunderstood you, but this almost sounds like salvation by faith + works.
That's not what I meant to say...chalk it up to fatigue and thinking faster than I can type. I think it's safe to say that if one has truly received Christ, there will be corresponding evidence (fruit, if you will). The point I was driving at was that God in Christ had taken action and provided a way for man to escape the consequences of his sin and be cleansed from sin, and that man must respond in a receptive way to that provision, the veracity of the response being corresponding fruit (or, you could say evidence). To say that producing fruit is a "work" is similar to saying that an apple tree must work to produce apples. No, an apple tree produces apples because that's what it does. In the same way, someone who has received Christ will naturally show evidence of that, in the form of a changed life and conduct. Maybe not a huge change at first, but change nonetheless, the same as an apple tree does not produce a large quantity of fruit when it first begins to bear fruit, but it does more and more as time goes on. True conversion produces evidence as surely as rain makes things wet.
I did not mean to imply that salvation was in any way based on our own works, or even works naturally produced by the conversion. Works (fruit) are evidence of salvation, but do not produce or cause salvation. Works (fruit) always follow, never precede. Faith produces works, works do not produce faith. Salvation is based solely on faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His work on our behalf. The thief on the cross received by faith, and the evidence was his rebuke of his fellow sufferer, rightly saying that he and the other thief deserved what they got, but Jesus didn't. It wasn't much fruit, but it was evidence that he had received salvation. His salvation occured when he asked Jesus to "remember me when you come in your Kingdom". That was the moment he placed himself in Jesus hands. Not an eloquent prayer, not even the "sinner's prayer", but effective nonetheless, as Jesus' subsequent remarks proved. Even there, evidence was given of his conversion, almost at the point of death.
There isn't one.
I think you think it is much more cold hearted than it is :>) *grin*..God could have sent everyone of us to hell,He does not have to save any of us..this is His world we are His creation.
and if i told you there's somebody who loves you
would you say, "hey, show me that face"
and if i told you that true freedom was actual
would you say, "hey, take me to that place?"
and if i said, "there is a family
a body that moves as one"
do you feel the LOVE that invites us
LIBERTY excites us
the DISCO has just begun, has just begungive me love, give me liberty, disco
the place everybody in the family's found
on that day we will all be happy people
when love, liberty, disco's in townand as we step into the light of the lover
we're all the same, there's no rich or poor
and you know it's never been good for a man to be alone
so come on in, your name's on the door
what are we waiting forall our fears are turning 'round
fall down, and meet your maker
where our true selves will be found
calling out to every lonely soul
Ah, I see. Well, since you didn't really debunk the Word (which is what I gave in this thread to support what I said), I'll just graciously accept your reaction.
Besides, and seriously, the only acceptance that I seek is Christ's for it is only His that will matter in the long run. As long as I am under the Blood, everything is gonna be all right.
Romans chapter 1:
19: Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22: Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23: And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24: Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26: For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28: And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29: Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30: Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31: Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
That's why.
And look at #73. See if you can figure that one out. I dare to think I was pretty clear.
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