Posted on 01/20/2002 5:02:48 PM PST by CCWoody
That was not judgmental? That was not a judgment on your part as to the state of the_doc's salvation?
You need to recognize that you cannot just rationalize away lies by denying them. The truth is there for all to see. I still contend that your words will bring you serious harm (as does your lack of truth concerning them). Repent.
What limits your choices ftD?
I have aa awesome testimony of God's grace..I have posted it before..would you like to read it?
Actually I believe that the parable of the sower and the seed proves Calvinism
Come read the word of God with me
Matthew 13
1 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
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Read it and understand....the meaning is clear. The word is given....but all will not understand or receive it because as Jesus said it is " not given to then to understand. Now multitudes had heard that parable. Jesus preached it with the intent for it to go forth, yet the multitudes did not understand it. It was spoken for His disciples . It was spoken to be a teaching to those that would follow..
That is why there are Evangelical Calvinists..some will hear even if the multitudes will not!
If God knew "we "were going to make that decision and did nothing to intervene in fact He predestined it by His lack of action..
Well actually what made me rethink the Armenian position was I never felt there was a "choice".It never entered my mind at that time or in the 25 years since....I understood the depth of my sin and I understood how unworthy I was to be loved by God..I fell to my knees....there is NO other response in the presence of a Holy God ,connect..
There are lots of folks in "Calvinist" and in "Armenian " churches that are unsaved..they believe they were born into the kingdom (Billy Graham just just said that of his wife ..can you believe that??).
At the moment you were saved did you hesitate and think "I wonder if I should do this?" Cause if you did we had very different salvation experiences..
Forknowlege of events does not mean pre-destination.
I know there are Evangelical Calvinists. Althought I can discuss the whole TULIP thing with anyone, what I find very disturbing is that in the end, the whole Calvinism v. Arminianism debate does not result in the salvation of a single soul. The Gospel message is clear that one must be saved in order to have everlasting life. The theological reasoning behind the way in which someone comes to the decision to accept Christ as their personal Savior is really irrelevant. Christians are instructed to spead the Good News, which does not require that one understand how salvation 'operates'.
It strikes me as somewhat humorous that the people who post these threads and are so determined to defned their position are always Calvinists. It is only after a Calvinist posts these articles and use them to defend stands that even John Calvin didn't take do the Armenians jump in.
Have you ever read The Five Points of Calvinism, by Edwin Palmer? He has impeccable Calvinist credentials, was a Christian Reformed Church minister and theologian, as well as a college professor at Calvin College in Grand Rapids, MI. He is now deceased. He was also the general secretary (he was in charge of the entire effort) for the work of the committee comprised of Biblical scholars from many denominations that produced the NIV Bible, which grew out of an effort begun by the Christian Reformed Church.
I say this only to emphasize that I have no bias against Calvinism. I just think TULIP was overdone in response to a profession of faith written by Arminius (sp?). It is also an indication that I am not simply blindly attacking Calvinism. In fact, I think John Calvin would hardly recognize much of what manyh Calvinists on this thread are saying about a theology they attribute to him. Calvin himself was very disturbed and uncomfortable with the concept of pre-destination when is came to the issue of salvation for individuals. I have read Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Faith, so it is not like I speak without a base of knowledge.
That is not the point and you know it.
That IS the point, and I intend to keep hammering on it.
The affirmation of the Freedom of Man's Will is, in a precise and nuanced way, one of the things which set John Calvin's theology apart from that of Martin "Bondage of the Will" Luther.
Calvin maintains that the Will of Man is Free; it is his spirit (including the emotional constitution of his Wants and desires) which is Fallen. Because all of fallen Man's native Wants are evil, he freely wills to do nothing but evil, for that is all he Wants to do.
If given the opportunity to worship God or reject God, the Fallen Natural Man will employ his free, uninhibited, unconstrained Will to reject God, every time and without exception, for he wants to reject God and he is going to freely Will to do whatsoever he Wants to do.
You maintain that man is totally dead with no will.
You speak lies.
We maintain that the Natural Man's spirit is totally dead and hostile to God, and therefore he freely employs his very real and active Free Will to reject God, all the time, every time.
Thus, his freedom amounts to what? Nothing.
No, it amounts to a very great power for Evil.
For that is all that the Natural Man wants to do with his Free Will: evil.
You bring in freedom after sucking all the meaning out of it (like you do to the word 'grace'). In your system only God is free. Everything good or bad is traced back to His directive will.
On the contrary. We maintain that the Free Will of the fallen, Natural Man is real, active, robust, and uninhibited. Man enjoys the uninhibited Freedom of Action to do whatsoever he wants to do, without any internal or external compulsion or constraint; and because all of his natural, fallen Wants are God-hating, he freely Wills to always reject God, all the time, every time.
Or do you believe that the Fallen Man, in and of himself, naturally possesses God-Pleasing Wants?
To use the word Freedom the way you do is the same way the Nazi's and Communists did, it is a nonword.
On the contrary. The Nazis and Communists forced slave-laborers to build weapons of war for their masters to use in murder and conquest.
The Calvinist says that natural, Fallen Man is not forced to Sin, never forced to do evil, never compelled to reject God. On the contrary, Fallen Man is absolutely Free; and so he freely wills to Sin, to do Evil, to reject God all the time, every time, for that is all he wants to do and he has the uninhibited Free Will to do whatsoever he Wants, without compulsdion.
Or do you believe that the Fallen Man, in and of himself, naturally possesses God-Pleasing Wants?
Did I hesitate? No t really, the Gospel message made too much sense to me when I heard it at a Campus Crusade for Christ meeting during the spring of my freshman year in college (lmost 30 years ago); but I did have to make that decision. There are those who hear it, understand it, and yet decide not to make the same decision you and I made. My ex-wife, who grew up in a Calvinistic Church could never explain the circumstances of her conversion. No wonder she was depressed for so many years, but that is a long story.
Does the Bible teach conditional or unconditional election?
Does it teach total Depravity?
If these are scriptural doctrines then we have a duty to proclaim them. Most arminian churches do not mention doctrines like Predestination at all. they don't want to go near it yet it is taught repeatedly through both testaments. In the new testament it is taught in every gospel and in most of the epistles. Also when you appreciate the truth of election you appreciate the depth of Gods grace even more, and you have a gospel where Gods Glory not mans needs are central
Excuse me, but do you care to go back and reread the very first line of my post #359?
So, I take it that, by your reasoning, there is no more need for anyone to petition our God for mercy because those who would are just out of luck, right? That's deception straight from Satan, my friend.
No, that's the way you interpreted what I said.
Satan would love for that Balloon Stuffing to be spread around because he uses every ploy to deceive the weak into thinking that God has restricted power to save those who are lost - which is a LIE.
Not at all. The Bible tells us in Hebrews 7:22-28 that, "By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore."
Amen. The arm of the Lord is not short in that it cannot save (Isaiah 59:1). His hand is a mighty hand.
One last thought using your logic; if God "predestined" one to eternity in hell, how can that soul be determined by the rightous judge as being disobedient, since that was his lot to begin with and was indeed obedient to his "preordained" calling?...
God didn't predestine anyone to hell. Our common earthly father Adam did that for us. Ever heard of Original Sin? There is not one person born who deserves the Kingdom of Heaven. Not even a newborn infant, for as the Psalmist wrote, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalms 51:5). This is not about the predestination of the condemned, but the predesination of the saved. Does your Bible contain these words from Romans 8:28-31 that says, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?"
What did the Apostle Paul mean by "to them who are called according to his purpose?" What did the Apostle mean by "For whom he did foreknow he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son?"
The word "foreknow" in the Greek is progniosko, which means, exactly "to know beforehand" (Strong's *4267). The word "predestinate" in the Greek is proorizo which means "to limit in advance" or "determine before, ordain." (Strong's *4309).
So, tell me, what did the Apostle mean by these things?
CC, am I leaving anything out here?
Don't even try it.
All I have to be able to do is respond to what people post on this board.
It's not my fault if the Calvinists here are having trouble articulating their beliefs in a clear and consistant manner.
And it's certainly not up to me to do your research for you in order to make your beliefs understandable in this forum.
In any case from what I've read the posters here have exposed several extremely glaring flaws in the Calvinism presented in this thread.
It simply contradicts too many scriptural doctrines in the Gospel of Christ.
We have agreement on this 100%..And that is to be our goal.I think the difference may be that someone being saved isn't MY responsibility..it is Gods. I just need to be obedient and He will do the rest..So I do not worry that someone that could be saved will not be because I didn't do a good job..
I "work" as hard a I can to present the gospel as often as I can .But I do not worry or fret that I may not have done a good "job" or let God down
Remember the scripture,
John 4
. 37"For in this the saying is true: "One sows and another reaps.'
38 I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored,
1 Corinthians 3 6I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
7So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
I now take that seriously .
Doctrine never saved anyone.That is one of the errors of Catholicism. All doctrine does is explain how man sees God. I do not need a "perfect" knowledge of any doctrine.Discussions like this help us look at God and His word in new ways..and that is always good:>)
That my friend was the grace of God making the word alive in you..some call it a "quicking"...I just call it God's Grace..You can not explain it but it sure does draw you. How many did not come forward that day ? How many came forward and soon fell away??( choked by the thorns?)
Something was different in those that heard and understood and persevered .
Perhaps your wife could not give a testimony to her salvation because she had not yet been saved...as you know growing up in any church is no guarantee .....
Blessings !
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