For Whom Did Christ Die? - Calvinism

The Spurgeon Archives ^ | Delivered on Lord's-Day Morning, September 6th, 1874 | C.H. Spurgeon

[WRhine]

If Salvation is by Grace through Faith, then EVERYONE gets the chance to be saved, it is only those who do not believe that lose out, hence, judgement is fair. The judgement is fair because the same standard of judgement is applied to all, not to just some.

EVERYONE? What about those few billion people who lived and died before Christ? Sounds like they got a bad deal by being born too soon.

[Jerry_M]

"You cut yourself off from God a long time ago."

Who are you to judge? Honestly, I believe that this phrase is one that will come back to haunt you in a very scary manner.

[Jerry_M]

"It is predestination, but not to salvation but to being a part of the Church, the Body of Christ."

Pray tell, how can one be a "part of the Church" and not enjoy salvation? Are you making this stuff up as you go along? Do you realize how silly it sounds?

[backup]

Now, before someone clips this to show I am for Univeralism, I am not, I disagreed with Hank when He posted it. However, I do not understand how what you said refutes it. Please be more specific.

"the many" occurs two times in the verse. In the first half, it refers to the multitude of "sinners." In the second half, it refers to the multitude of "sinners made righteous."

I understand how Hank is reading the verse; it makes sense in English. He is reading it as "...many people were made sinners, and many people were made righteous..." That's not how the Greek reads. "Many" doesn't modify an unwritten "people"; rather, "the many" represents the sinners/righteous (as I describe in the previous paragraph.)

Example:

By the hand of Sauron, the many rings were made. The many given to Men were used for evil.

Both occurences of "the many" do not refer to the same thing in this passage. (or, as Hank might put it, it is not a 'balanced construction') Ditto for Romans. It's not so obvious in English, but it is incredibly obvious in the Greek.

[azhenfud]

"Christ did not die for each and every man, but His elect in whom He foreknew from the foundation of the world."

Please answer this: by believing such a theory, do you not then fall guilty of the same error that the pious religious leaders of Jesus' day were guilty of teaching their fellows?
Look at what John told the Jews while he baptized the believers. Paraphrazed, he said that just because you are the blood of Abraham, you think you are the only ones who are worthy to be called "sons of God" and obtain mercy from Him, however God would raise up sons unto Himself from the very stones of the earth and He would have mercy on whom He would have mercy (not according to your or my reasoning - thank God). In Jesus' and John's day, stones were considered a problem to reaching a destination because stones in pathways wreaked havoc on the feet due to the lack of substantial footwear. Likewise, the Gentiles were seen as a hinderance to the devout Jews, who only saw them as being "in the way" of Israel reaching her "goals", however earthly they were. They were just not in the frame of mind to include their "outcast" within their plans. Both Jesus and John heaped insults upon the so called "heritage" of the Jews by stating that the stones' would be more worthy to be called "sons of God" than those born by bloodline of Abraham. Jesus reminded them of John's comments when He stated that if men were restrained from praise, even the stones would cry out.
We should be VERY careful of such a like attitude of the Jews unless we kindle God's anger against us, and we find ourselves being the shortsighted. This attitude seems to have become our self-justification to sit on our duffs and reject God's command to tell the salvation story to all....
Az

[Havoc]

The blood of Jesus is sufficient for the salvation for all of man kind,but it is only efficacious for those that "come "

But the contention of others of your ilk is that only thost 'chosen' to come gain efficaciousness. This is tantamount to saying that God is a respector of persons and only the people he chose beforehand will be saved. That is not what the Bible says. The Bible does speak of "chosen" people, that doesn't mean better. Moses was "chosen" it didn't make him better, just meant he had a specific purpose. This kind of religious elitism is what happens when men see themselves as better than others. It is the Calvinist message - but it isn't the Gospel that Jesus and the Apostles preached.

[Urbane_Guerilla]

And your point is?

My point is, put on a sandwich board, walk to Times Square and shout "Come Lord Jesus" to everyone you see. The louder you shout, I am sure, the more effective you will be in making the point you are making. And by all means, do not simply love others the way Jesus told us to love one another ... instead, try to engage others in obscure theological disputes ... wear a sandwich board ... do not simply love others as Jesus (and many others) have taught us to do ... shout, repeat yourself, hang a banana from your ear lobe

[CCWoody]

The drinking, merchandising (make money off of) the Word of God, and the 'offer' I got to make up with woody and be buddies - with 4 or 5 different references to Dick, I believe are just signs that go with not having the gospel.

Faith, grow up! You are displaying exactly just the sort of character that is the reason why I decided a new nickname other than "Dick" was needed. As a pure matter of fact, I happen to work in the same building where my father formerly worked (under a different company name) and as a result, there were those who then referred to him as "Big Dick" and later me as "Little Dick". Deal with that fact. "Dick" is a perfectly acceptable nickname except for those without the maturity to handle it.

It is exactly this sort of imbecile behavior which is why I did seek a new nickname. Knowing my real name as you do, you should appreciate why I did seek a new nickname. You were put off that I didn't give it out. Well, I have gone by Woody for so long that it is my name. Nevertheless, I did give you my real name and even attempted to explain why I don't just give it out. Seems that I am yet again justified for being cautious about this. I offered this little detail as means of opening myself up for reconcilation to you. I evidently have my answer to such candor.

Just keep in mind that until you found out just recently that I was a Calvinist, you enjoyed my posts. Hmmm!

Oh, and just to completely set the record straight, I did not request for that post to be pulled. I think it made you look much worse than any harm that could have been caused to me.

[rdb3]

I gave no theory, just the truth.

In fact, I gave a very humbling truth, nothing to be puffed up about. If Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ died for every man, there would be no need for a hell. This matter is meat, not milk.

It is no theory.

[rdb3]

People kill me with their selective reading skills. The point is no being either, but knowing that is it God Himself that does the choosing, without regard to what man does.

That comes right from His Word. So take it up with the author.

[rdb3]

Whatever anything else anyone believes about Jesus, the fundamental fact of Jesus is that he died for every human who has ever existed. I am not even a Christian and I know this to be true. Your arrogant nonsense is the reason why so many people justifiably hate certain Christians.

Is that so?

Since you are not a believer (I don't care if you don't call yourself a 'Christian' because I rarely call myself one), your opinion is moot.

But since you feel qualified to judge what is and is not "utter nonsense," feel free to prove me wrong.

And as far as some people's "justifiably hate" I say ,"Praise God, and pass the ammunition." You just opened a window into your own heart with your "justifiably hate" statement. The Apostle John wrote that he who hates his brother is a murderer. Justifiably? I'll give you a mulligan on that one.

[connectthedots]

I have no problem with believing that God predestined certain individuals to perform specific tasks in order to fulfill his plan for mankind. Paul would be a possible example, but for virtually everyone else, God allows man to make their individual decisions to either accept or reject the Gospel message.

[RaceBannon]

No, they are still required to believe in the coming Messiah. Also, in Romans, read this:

(Rom 2:15 KJV) Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

In context, you can see that it is about whether a person has had it explained to them, the full Gospel. There are gong to be those who have never heard it, so how can a righteous God judge them? He sees if they have the law writen in their hearts. We know from the New Testament that the LAW never saved, but that it was faith in Christ that saved. So, a person that has never heard of Christ isjudged on whether he or she realizes there is a God, that they are accountable to God, that they do not approach God right in their hearts because they fall short of the righteousness of God, and that that turn from their known wicked ways and then trust God to save them through His mercy and not their own works.

Note that, if a person does all this, yet says they heard of Jesus and reject this, that person was told of Jesus, and rejected Him, that means they rejected the light they were given, and that person dies on their sins.

[winslow]

With all these statements about election being "to the church" or "to a certain vocation" does anyone have any rebuttal of the many scripture passages which clearly teach that pre-destination is indeed to salvation.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Now this verse does teach that some (not all) of the people being addressed were ordained (or chosen) for eternal life and that as a result of that election they freely believed

[azhenfud]

"I gave no theory, just the truth."

Yes, and scriptural truth must be based on sound biblical evidence. May I challenge you to show any evidence where Jesus will "cast out" or "turn away" those who would come to him seeking mercy? I KNOW you can't. The only time Jesus even appeared to come close was where the woman asked from crumbs from the Master's table - and even then His hand was stretched out in love to help her.

"If Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ died for every man, there would be no need for a hell. This matter is meat, not milk."

Your shortsightness in this matter demonstrates that you clearly lack the ability to chew your food well as there is no teeth to your reasoning. What has the need for hell to do with this discussion? We're not speaking of the disobedient who choose the paths of destruction, we're speaking of those to whom God gave the power to become sons of God through faith in the finished work of Christ(John 1 12). Please study the scriptures a little deeper, and you will find much evidence that Christ's love and mercy is freely extended to ALL that would come to His table. If your theory were true - there'd be no need for you nor I to turn to His Sovereign for mercy, we'd be eternally doomed. But then you may just think that end is justified for all those who don't subscribe to your doctrine..

[winslow]

I've been away for a few days but thanks for the heads up.

[rdb3]

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.
--St. John 1:12

Since this is what the Apostle John tells us, what are we to make of it? Only those who receive (believe) in Christ does God the Father enable or empower to become His sons. This is very specific.

Let's reverse it to see what it says by what it does not say. If one does not believe, he hasn't the power to become a son of God. The translation holds up either way, positively or negatively.

Let's go further. Who believes or will believe in Christ? Since the dead cannot believe (for they are dead), nor have the dead any faculties for reason (for they are dead), only those whom the Holy Spirit quickens (or makes alive) can faithfully believe. And who are those whom the Holy Spirit quickens? God's elect, or, those for whom Christ died for.

Hell has a lot to do with this issue for if Christ truly did die for every man, there would be no need for hell. We know that all those who God has given to Christ will come to Him, and he that comes will in no wise be cast out (St. John 6:37). Now, again, who are they that the Father has given to Christ? Is it every man? Of course not. Since God the Father has not given every man to Christ, those not given are hellbound. Ergo, I bring hell to this subject.

God's word achieves that which it was sent to do. It does not come back to Him void (Isaiah 55:11). God's Word was sent to save only those in which God so chose to give to His Son.

Lastly, if I have a doctrine, it's Genesis through Malachi, St. Matthew through The Revelation. Definitely nothing more, and most certainly nothing less.

[RnMomof7]

Race, if God did not foreknow the fall and allow it to happen why was Christ the remedy to mans sin, ordained before the foundations of the earth were laid?

1 Peter 1
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.