Catholics, Jews Unite To Attack Scholar's Latest, Goldhagen Stirring Ire With Article on Pius XII

FORWARD ^ | JANUARY 18, 2002 | MARC PERELMAN

[onyx]

Thanks for all the information. Admittedly, I've never read much about Pope Pius XII except the slanders against him, which have always dominated the media coverage.

[Zviadist]

From a politically conservative point of view, this article regarding Rabbi Lapin of TowardTradition

Lapin is the man!

[Zviadist]

We have been referring to him as the head of "Jews for Hitler". Finkelstein is the world's leading Jewish Holocaust Denier.

You're kooky, and perhaps certifiable. One can be deeply touched by the Holocaust, yet critical of how some vested interests seek to benefit financially from it without being a friggin Nazi! As a matter of fact, those most moved by the Holocaust would be MOST VOCIFEROUS in their opposition to those who would seek to profit financially from its memory. I can think of nothing more noble than to oppose those who would cheapen the Holocaust for profit. What's wrong with you?

[Zviadist]

An argument could be made that it is only those Jews who retained their status as members of the "chosen people", and were later assimulated into one Church

It is indeed an interesting and stimulating argument.

[veronica]

Your need to attack me for merely posting an article by a respected Conservative writer like Steven Plaut, which confirms that the evil Leftist and Holocaust denier Finkelstein is indeed who I said he was, AND who is a sock puppet for Jewhaters everywhere, makes me wonder about your agenda.

I suggest you transfer your support of the Holocaust denier Finkelstein to Elie Weisel, a true hero of the Holocaust, who was by President Bush's side on Holocaust Commemoration Day. And try not to call names.

[onyx]

Andrew Sullivan, a strong supporter of Israel and Jews, wrote a column critical of Goldhagan's essay.

[Zviadist]

makes me wonder about your agenda.

My agenda is love.

And I calls 'em as I sees 'em. Finkelstein makes some very good points. Sorry, but only in a very twisted mind does that make me a Nazi. If you are getting confused about what Nazis really are, perhaps you might like to take a trip over to Stormfront.org. That will refresh your memory.

[veronica]

From a review of Finkelstein's book....

Finkelstein says: If David Irving [the British Holocaust denier] is saying, "Well, an Auschwitz survivor is born every day," he can say that, because if you look at the numbers of the Holocaust industry, it's true....

He even aligns himself with, and defends disgraced David Irving, the most notorious Holocaust denier on the planet.

[Southern Federalist]

As neither a Catholic or a Jew, but as I think you know a friend of Israel, don't damn the Catholic Church or Pius XII on grounds of guilt by association with these defenders. They can only talk about Catholicism's innate "anti-Judaism" by rejecting Vatican II. They are far more bitterly anti-Jewish than the pre-Vatican II popes. All the documentation they cite on Pius should just provoke one answer: "So why haven't YOU learned anything from this?"

I am neither an admirer nor a hater of Pius 12. Protestants don't typically warm to him. But I think the record of WWII is that he knew what was happening was wrong and did what he thought was possible. If he had been a different kind of man he might have thought more was possible. But don't play along when these people use him to absolve themselves of their own anti-Semitism.

[Zviadist]

You love to assasinate people by their supposed "association" while never really addressing the issues. I did not say "I find Finkelstein's arguments stimulating because he associates himself with Irving", did I? So why not address the issue instead of using the Leninist tactic of attacking motives, associations, etc? Your arguments would be more interesting to read and may even convince some people that your views have some merit. As it stands now, you just come off as a hater. That's no fun.

[patent]

>>>Conservative" Catholics fully embrace the nearly heretical ecumenism of JPII's Church, shockingly turning their back on the history and traditions of their own faith and agreeing to the modernist fabrication that false religions are just "another way" to salvation.

Its been a while, but you are again repeating this falsehood. The Church does not teach, and conservative Catholics do not believe, that other religions are "another way" to salvation. The Vatican just got done silencing another theologian trying to teach that, but yet here you are.

patent

[veronica]

Finkelstein makes some very good points.....

Sorry sounds like Holocaust denial acceptance to me.

Reminds me of the old joke -- 'so other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy play?'

[Aquinasfan]

Re: #4. Goldhagen must have missed all of this despite his "exhaustive research."

[Romulus]

Hello, Veronica. You still here?

[Senator Pardek]

Your disdain for "self-hating Jews" is well known. Do you find the self-pity of certified victimhood more to your taste?

Well stated.

[veronica]

As neither a Catholic or a Jew, but as I think you know a friend of Israel, don't damn the Catholic Church or Pius XII on grounds of guilt by association with these defenders.

I am not even debating the Church issue. I am debating the book on Germany and Finkelstein.

[veronica]

It is precisely that I reject the idea of victimhood that I will not stand for people like Finkelstein who make those accusations against Jews.

He's a freak. Most Jews shun him. He is loved however by the enemies of Jews and Israel. Like Noam Chomsky, Amira Hass, Israel Shahak, that gang. The real hard Lefties.

[Petronski]

The fact that Finkelstein is the child of Holocaust survivors makes him all the more evil. He spits in the face of his own parents. AND he accuses others of profiting from the Holocaust, which is what he does.

Hear, hear!

[Romulus]

Are you ready to shun Daniel Goldhagen? Or do you think permanent victim status is "good for the Jews"?

[Romulus]

I am not even debating the Church issue. I am debating the book on Germany and Finkelstein.

You came onto this thread to defend a libel, got soundly spanked, and are now desperately trying to change the subject.