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1 posted on 01/15/2002 12:42:47 PM PST by Askel5
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To: commiesout
I'm filing this one in with Chernomyrdin's "Bombs Rule out Talks of Peace" and other startling examples of the "disinformation" to which we should pay no attention.
2 posted on 01/15/2002 12:44:14 PM PST by Askel5
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To: Askel5
For the first time, the government has the power to seize a citizen’s assets even before the citizen has been charged with a crime.

Perhaps Mr. Martin has never heard of the war on drugs. If the cops even SUSPECT your property or money was linked to illegal drugs, they can seize every last cent, not charge you with anything, and force YOU to sue to get it back.

4 posted on 01/15/2002 12:49:58 PM PST by Blood of Tyrants
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To: Askel5
Thomas Jefferson wrote, "Our rulers will become corrupt, our people careless... the time for fixing every essential right on a legal basis is [now] while our rulers are honest, and ourselves united. From the conclusion of this war, we shall be going downhill. It will not then be necessary to resort every moment to the people for support. They will be forgotten, therefore, and their rights disregarded. They will forget themselves, but in the sole faculty of making money, and will never think of uniting to effect a due respect for their rights. The shackles, therefore, which shall not be knocked off at the conclusion of this war, will remain on us long, will be made heavier and heavier, till our rights shall revive or expire in a convulsion."

I haven't ever seen that one. What's the source?

7 posted on 01/15/2002 1:00:19 PM PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Askel5
For all our failings here in the US, the idea of Pravda cataloguing the unAmerican seems a little too pink for me.
9 posted on 01/15/2002 1:02:26 PM PST by onedoug
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To: Askel5
Notes on Religion 1785:

Truth can stand by itself. Subject opinion to coercion: whom will you make your inquisitors? Fallible men; men governed by bad passions, by private as well as public reasons. And why subject it to coercion? To produce uniformity. But is uniformity of opinion desire-able? No more than of face and stature. Introduce the bed of Procrustes then, and as there is danger that the large men may beat the small, make us all of a size, by lopping the former and stretching the latter. Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a Censor morum over each other. Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned: yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth. Let us reflect that it is inhabited by a thousand millions of people. That these profess probably a thousand different systems of religion. That ours is but one of that thousand. That if there be but one right, and ours that one, we should wish to see the 999 wandering sects gathered into the fold of truth. But against such a majority we cannot effect this by force. Reason and persuasion are the only practicable instruments. To make way for these, free inquiry must be indulged; and how can we wish others to indulge it while we refuse it ourselves. But every state, says an inquisitor, has established some religion. "No two, say I, have established the same." Is this a proof of the infallibility of establishments? Our sister states of Pennsylvania and New York, however, have long subsisted without any establishment at all. The experiment was new and doubtful when they made it. It has answered beyond conception. They flourish infinitely. Religion is well supported; of various kinds indeed, but all good enough; all sufficient to preserve peace and order; or if a sect arises whose tenets would subvert morals, good sense has fair play, and reasons and laughs it out of doors, without suffering the state to be troubled with it. They do not hang more malefactors than we do. They are not more disturbed with religious dissentions. On the contrary, their harmony is unparalleled, and can be ascribed to nothing but their unbounded tolerance, because there is no other circumstance in which they differ from every nation on earth. They have made the happy discovery, that the way to silence religious disputes, is to take no notice of them. Let us too give this experiment fair play, and get rid, while we may, of those tyrannical laws. It is true we are as yet secured against them by the spirit of the times. I doubt whether the people of this country would suffer an execution for heresy, or a three years imprisonment for not comprehending the mysteries of the trinity. But is the spirit of the people an infallible, a permanent reliance? Is it government? Is this the kind of protection we receive in return for the rights we give up? Besides, the spirit of the times may alter, will alter. Our rulers will become corrupt, our people careless. A single zealot may commence persecuter, and better men be his victims. It can never be too often repeated, that the time for fixing every essential right on a legal basis is while our rulers are honest, and ourselves united. From the conclusion of this war we shall be going down hill. It will not then be necessary to resort every moment to the people for support. They will be forgotten therefore, and their rights disregarded. They will forget themselves, but in the sole faculty of making money, and will never think of uniting to effect a due respect for their rights. The shackles, therefore, which shall not be knocked off at the conclusion of this war, will remain on us long, will be made heavier and heavier, till our rights shah revive or expire in a convulsion.


13 posted on 01/15/2002 1:07:24 PM PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Askel5;CommiesOut
With the passage of the USA PATRIOT Act, we have effectively militarized law enforcement in the United States.

Thus the ensuing and inevitable economic downturn and its consequences, such as an increase in civil strife and political tension that will result from this legislation, can be more easily handled by law enforcement.

16 posted on 01/15/2002 1:11:52 PM PST by AGAviator
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To: Askel5
Al Martin - RAW!
21 posted on 01/15/2002 1:16:56 PM PST by Senator Pardek
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To: Askel5
"If the government states that the alleged commission of a crime should prove injurious to State Security, then the citizen cannot invoke Fifth Amendment privilege to remain mute. He can be compelled by “whatever means necessary,” (Ashcroft’s own words) to divulge what he may know. "

The first lie I found in the article.

23 posted on 01/15/2002 1:46:34 PM PST by mrsmith
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To: Askel5
The rest of it is too incoherent to figure out when he's lying or what he's lying about.
He mixes the PATRIOT Act and the Tribunals up, at least I think he does.

This dishonest rant does a great disservice to American citizens who care about the Constitutionality and consequences of our laws.

24 posted on 01/15/2002 1:54:33 PM PST by mrsmith
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To: Askel5
OK, OK. So we didn't make it out of the wilderness alive. What are you crabbing about? There's still a lot of fun to be had. I did a great tap dance routine with splits and everything to "She's a Grand Old Flag."

Gerontion

Thou hast nor youth nor age
But as it were an after dinner sleep
Dreaming of both.

Here I am, an old man in a dry month,
Being read to by a boy, waiting for rain.
I was neither at the hot gates
Nor fought in the warm rain
Nor knee deep in the salt marsh, heaving a cutlass,
Bitten by flies, fought.
My house is a decayed house,
And the jew squats on the window sill, the owner,
Spawned in some estaminet of Antwerp,
Blistered in Brussels, patched and peeled in London.
The goat coughs at night in the field overhead;
Rocks, moss, stonecrop, iron, merds.
The woman keeps the kitchen, makes tea,
Sneezes at evening, poking the peevish gutter.

I an old man,
A dull head among windy spaces.

Signs are taken for wonders. "We would see a sign":
The word within a word, unable to speak a word,
Swaddled with darkness. In the juvescence of the year
Came Christ the tiger

In depraved May, dogwood and chestnut, flowering Judas,
To be eaten, to be divided, to be drunk
Among whispers; by Mr. Silvero
With caressing hands, at Limoges
Who walked all night in the next room;
By Hakagawa, bowing among the Titians;
By Madame de Tornquist, in the dark room
Shifting the candles; Fraulein von Kulp
Who turned in the hall, one hand on the door. Vacant shuttles
Weave the wind. I have no ghosts,
An old man in a draughty house
Under a windy knob.

After such knowledge, what forgiveness? Think now
History has many cunning passages, contrived corridors
And issues, deceives with whispering ambitions,
Guides us by vanities. Think now
She gives when our attention is distracted
And what she gives, gives with such supple confusions
That the giving famishes the craving. Gives too late
What's not believed in, or if still believed,
In memory only, reconsidered passion. Gives too soon
Into weak hands, what's thought can be dispensed with
Till the refusal propagates a fear. Think
Neither fear nor courage saves us. Unnatural vices
Are fathered by our heroism. Virtues
Are forced upon us by our impudent crimes.
These tears are shaken from the wrath-bearing tree.

The tiger springs in the new year. Us he devours. Think at last
We have not reached conclusion, when I
Stiffen in a rented house. Think at last
I have not made this show purposelessly
And it is not by any concitation
Of the backward devils.
I would meet you upon this honestly.
I that was near your heart was removed therefrom
To lose beauty in terror, terror in inquisition.
I have lost my passion: why should I need to keep it
Since what is kept must be adulterated?
I have lost my sight, smell, hearing, taste and touch:
How should I use it for your closer contact?

These with a thousand small deliberations
Protract the profit of their chilled delirium,
Excite the membrane, when the sense has cooled,
With pungent sauces, multiply variety
In a wilderness of mirrors. What will the spider do,
Suspend its operations, will the weevil
Delay? De Bailhache, Fresca, Mrs. Cammel, whirled
Beyond the circuit of the shuddering Bear
In fractured atoms. Gull against the wind, in the windy straits
Of Belle Isle, or running on the Horn,
White feathers in the snow, the Gulf claims,
And an old man driven by the Trades
To a sleepy corner.

Tenants of the house,
Thoughts of a dry brain in a dry season.

....T.S. Elliot

(I think Aztec-ism is the logical move now. I really do. Imagine the tap routine a person could work up around an offering to Huitzilopochtli. Tapping like mad for a while, you reach in and pluck out the heart and then do the splits.......)

25 posted on 01/15/2002 1:54:58 PM PST by LaBelleDameSansMerci
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To: Askel5
The USA PATRIOT Act is neither American nor is it patriotic. It is, however, a sign that the United States has out-sovieted the former Soviet Union.

The American people have allowed it to happen.

Yep and yep.

30 posted on 01/15/2002 2:19:39 PM PST by Jefferson Adams
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To: Askel5
“State Security” or SS for short sounds familiar and creepy.
31 posted on 01/15/2002 2:51:15 PM PST by malarski
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To: Askel5
Hmmm, someone else who, like me, considers it a GESTAPO Law!
33 posted on 01/15/2002 6:11:46 PM PST by poet
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To: Askel5
It is just so very refreshing to read Truth!

People are like animals they have a party group mentality.

We have used Lady Liberty as a Whore and allow the corruption by those we elected because we voted for them, we let them get away with anything as ours could do no wrong.

What pray tell is to cheer about with this administration?

BUMP

40 posted on 01/15/2002 8:29:52 PM PST by horsewhispersc
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To: Askel5
bttt
41 posted on 01/15/2002 8:32:44 PM PST by Don Myers
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To: Askel5
bttt.
46 posted on 01/15/2002 9:38:48 PM PST by KDD
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To: Askel5
When this act was passed in October, one of two things (or perhaps a combination of both) happened: Our legislators were afflicted with the 'get on the post-9/11 patriotic bandwagon' syndrome (so much so that they probably didn't even bother to read the 300-plus-page abomination in its entirety before affixing their blessing to it), or our legislators found themselves rubbing their hands together at the thought of being able to use 9/11 as an excuse to usurp more of their constituents' Constitutional liberties than have ever been usurped in the history of our country (with the possible exception of the passage of the Alien and Sedition Acts....I guess those of us with a predisposition to look for a silver lining ought to be grateful that such legislation only seems to come along every two hundred years....).

The realist votes for #2.

The main effect that this monstrosity of legislation will have is that it will not only give the government the authority to surveille its citizens in a myriad of ways (all unconstitional), without a warrant or provable just cause, but it will also have us all serving as snitches against one another, under penalty of law if we don't. It's called government by intimidation.

And the requirements of both big- and small-business are Orwellian. The mandatory reporting of 'suspicious transactions' (now there's a definition that's about as clear as swamp water) represents a giant Big-Brother step that goes far beyond even the Bank Secrecy Act.

This representative republic, existing under this Constitution, cannot allow its citizens to be required to submit to unconstitutional surveillance by its government. Nor can it allow its businesses to be required to report transactions to the government, in effect opening their books in order to gain government 'approval.'

Congresses, and Presidents, have been passing unconstitutional legislation for decades, but this piece of legislation not only circumvents the Constitution, it declares it irrelevant. And the American people are either to ignorant to realize that the foundation of their republic is being buried without ceremony, or they are too apathetic to care. (My guess is 75% - 20%, with the other 5% of us left shaking our heads in disbelief).

Patriotism has officially been redefined to be submission to the 'legalized' government confiscation of wealth and usurpation of individual liberty.

There's more than one kind of terrorism....

47 posted on 01/15/2002 9:44:12 PM PST by joanie-f
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To: Pocat
FYI, in case you haven't seen this one...

Wasichu

55 posted on 01/18/2002 4:16:01 PM PST by Wasichu
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