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Dark Matter: Hidden Mass Confounds Science, Inspires Revolutionary Theories
Reuters ^ | 08 January 2002 | Andrew Chaikin

Posted on 01/15/2002 7:02:17 AM PST by PatrickHenry

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To: beckett
I interpret Weinberg's use of the term "religion" as synonomous with "respect for mystery."

To many religious people, "respect for mystery" means not asking about it at all. The scientist's natural reaction to any mystery is to want to investigate it and figure it out, so that it will be a mystery no longer. It's no virtue to "respect" mysteries to the point where they aren't questioned. In fact, it strikes me more as a form of disrespect. To learn about something is to cherish it.

Hardcore materialists, as I define them, believe that "intelligent" people have solved the problem of existence, and that there are no unknown unknowns.

Obviously, anyone who thinks there is nothing more to be discovered would not be interested in scientific research. What would be the point? We hardcore materialists believe that there are no unknowable unknowns worth considering.

41 posted on 01/15/2002 10:30:16 AM PST by Physicist
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To: Physicist
We hardcore materialists believe that there are no unknowable unknowns worth considering [emphasis mine].

Ah, there's the rub.

42 posted on 01/15/2002 10:56:21 AM PST by beckett
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To: AndrewC
Interesting paper; thanks for it! Nonetheless you're about to see that I'm a bit confused.

I wish they had described the physical implications of a "flat" rotation curve. Evidently I had quite the wrong picture of how galaxies rotate, one corresponding to the non-flat rotation curve of a disk.

I assume the positive slope of that line in that example comes from the increasing linear velocity--the angular being constant. If the line height at a given radius is linear velocity, that would mean that the outer parts of a galaxy (with its flat rotation curve) are indeed rotating much slower (angular velocity) than the inner parts after all, which doesn't sound like the problem befuddling astronomers at all.

43 posted on 01/15/2002 10:58:14 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
If the line height at a given radius is linear velocity, that would mean that the outer parts of a galaxy (with its flat rotation curve) are indeed rotating much slower (angular velocity) than the inner parts after all,

That's right. The speed of the stars is constant throughout much of the galaxy, unlike a record album, in which the outer edge moves at a faster speed than the innermost groove.

which doesn't sound like the problem befuddling astronomers at all.

It's a huge problem, as according to Kepler's laws, the speed should be inversely proportional to the square root of the radius. It's not.

44 posted on 01/15/2002 11:06:30 AM PST by Physicist
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To: beckett
Ah, there's the rub.

So name an unknowable unknown that's worth my time to ponder.

45 posted on 01/15/2002 11:08:56 AM PST by Physicist
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To: Physicist
We hardcore materialists believe that there are no unknowable unknowns worth considering.

OTOH, I know you would not pursue any unknowable unknown worth considering. I presume you wouldn't even know that you didn't know.

46 posted on 01/15/2002 11:11:50 AM PST by AndrewC
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To: PatrickHenry
Actually, the missing mass is made up of those socks that mysteriously vanish from the clothes dryer.
47 posted on 01/15/2002 11:12:10 AM PST by Poohbah
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To: Salgak
The best guess on the nature of dark matter is black holes, "brown" stars, etc. No need for a new particle as this article implies.
48 posted on 01/15/2002 11:18:12 AM PST by jpsb
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To: Physicist
You changed my term, "unknown unknowns", to your own, "unknowable unknown." Obviously, I can't name an unknown unknown, since it is (you guessed it) unknown.

The change is actually quite instructive, because it says something about my understanding of man as a limited, contingent agent, and your apparent understanding of him as capable of rendering everything "worth considering" knowable.

49 posted on 01/15/2002 11:18:55 AM PST by beckett
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To: Physicist
Thanks again. Wasn't modeling out the implications well at all.
50 posted on 01/15/2002 11:20:22 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Physicist;VadeRetro
It's a huge problem, as according to Kepler's laws, the speed should be inversely proportional to the square root of the radius. It's not.

I concur. Thanks, Herr Physiker, it is wise to get out of the way of the pros so I can add nothing. I also found another paper on the calculation of galactic angular velocity. The Disk Rotation of the Milky Way Galaxy

51 posted on 01/15/2002 11:23:47 AM PST by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC
I presume you wouldn't even know that you didn't know.

Aye, but the religious are in that boat, too. The key difference lies in our treatment of the knowable unknown: how did the physical universe develop, how does the machinery of life work, how does the brain perform the act of consciousness, how do particles come to have the masses they do...

52 posted on 01/15/2002 11:26:02 AM PST by Physicist
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To: AndrewC
Haven't read the whole paper, but the first paragraph is worth quoting:

The rotation of the disk of the Milky Way Galaxy is analyzed. It rotates neither as a solid disk, nor in accordance with individual keplerian orbits. Rather the disk executes a form of differential rotation which suggests that a considerable fraction of its mass resides in the outer portions of the Galaxy.

53 posted on 01/15/2002 11:27:49 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: jpsb
Agreed. My pal was just talking about some of the more exotic theories that have appeared, primarily as a result of particle physics. . . .
54 posted on 01/15/2002 11:33:48 AM PST by Salgak
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To: mlo
Then you've missed some recent developments. They've been able to slow it down, INSIDE of a given media, and even stop it cold, and then re-start its' motion on command. VERY interesting stuff. .. not sure what it proves, but interesting nonetheless. . .
55 posted on 01/15/2002 11:36:59 AM PST by Salgak
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To: VadeRetro
Rather the disk executes a form of differential rotation which suggests that a considerable fraction of its mass resides in the outer portions of the Galaxy.

Turntable needs oil. The Intelligent Maintainance Man is asleep on the job.

56 posted on 01/15/2002 11:51:40 AM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: Colosis
Sounds like satan is alive an well.
57 posted on 01/15/2002 11:51:56 AM PST by victim soul
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To: beckett
Here's the way I see it. There are an infinitude of things to know. Obviously we won't ever know them all, but if any given thing is understandable, we can (and will eventually) understand it if only we set our minds to it. If it's fundamentally not understandable--such as the ultimate question of "why does anything exist and not just nothing"--then pondering it won't get you any closer to the truth (religious claims to the contrary notwithstanding).
58 posted on 01/15/2002 11:54:51 AM PST by Physicist
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To: Salgak
They've been able to slow it down, INSIDE of a given media,

...no miracle there; that happens naturally in any refractive medium...

and even stop it cold, and then re-start its' motion on command.

It "stops" light in exactly the same sense that a tape recorder "stops" sound. It's a technological breakthrough, don't get me wrong, but it's no challenge to our understanding of nature.

59 posted on 01/15/2002 11:58:44 AM PST by Physicist
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To: Physicist
The key difference lies in our treatment of the knowable unknown

... And to what purpose.

60 posted on 01/15/2002 12:05:33 PM PST by AndrewC
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