Posted on 01/03/2002 11:19:13 AM PST by ArGee
A very rich man decided that he wanted to show kindness to the people of the fair city where he lived. Since he was very rich indeed, he decided to throw a banquet for the entire city. He rented the largest sports arena in the city and began his plans. He planned for huge amounts of the best food possible, making allowances for every religious and medical diet. He advertised the banquet in every possible manner - television, radio, billboard, door-to-door canvassing. Considering that there might be some who could not travel, he arranged for free bus transportation to and from the event, and some special-needs vehicles for all who could not ride busses. He even scheduled the banquet to run for 24 hours a day for several days so that everyone could be sure of being served.
He planned long and hard and finally the big day came. The rich man ate quickly and then went about wishing all his guests well and personally making sure that all had every need met. After a while he went outside to tour the grounds and talk with those who had not yet gone in, and those who had already left. Everyone was happy. Many were profusely thankful. It was a glorious occasion.
At one point the rich man noticed a group of people sitting outside a locked door with most unpleasant looks on their faces. Sensing they were not happy, he went over to them. He did not introduce himself but simply asked them if he could be of service.
"We want to go in through this door," one of them replied.
The rich man explained to them that the hall was arranged to feed a large number of people as quickly and effortlessly as possible. This required order inside, and the entrances and exits had been carefully planned to be as efficient as possible. He then offered to go call one of the golf carts that were avaialbe to help people who could not walk far to take them to the entrance. But the man replied, "We do not want to go in the entrance. We want to go in this door. We don't understand why we can't go in any door we wish. We think the man who set this banquet up is mean and hateful for insisting we go in through the entrance. He has tried to bill himself as a very kind man by offering this banquet, but he is not kind at all if he will not indulge us and let us go through this door.
The rich man was distressed at these words, but still attempted to please these people. He tried once more to explain to them what was behind this particular door, and how if they went in this door they would disrupt the meal service being offered inside. He offered to drive them himself, not only to the door, but inside the hall to their tables if they would only go through the entrance to enjoy the meal. Again the man said, "No, but only a hateful man would keep us from going through the door of our choosing. And we will sit here and tell anyone who will listen to us what an awful man he is until he lets us in."
At that the rich man was enraged and he shouted, "Enough." Then he called a police officer to have them thrown off of the property and ordered that they not be allowed to return until the banquet was over and all the scraps had been hauled away. Then, mourning for their loss, he turned to visit with other guests.
What sort of proof are you looking for?
How about the countless people tortured and killed for the sake Christianity (Islam, Judaism, etc)? This goes both ways. There has been harm done by Christians (Moslems, Jews, etc) to others and there has been harm done to Christians (Moslems, Jews, etc) by others. None of those people would have suffered their fate if Christianity (Islam, Judaism, etc) did not exist.
(What is Luvit's test?)
Come to the Table.
So you are in heaven. Does everyone in heaven have DSL there or do you use 56K modems? Is there golf in heaven?
I have no faith.
That statement is utter nonsense to me. You couldn't live or function well at all without faith.
You have faith the sun will come up tomorrow. You have faith you'll still be breathing 10 minutes from now or 5 miles further down the road. You have faith the big Mack truck will stop at the red light. You have faith you'll PROBABLY be able to get your money at the bank when you need it. You have faith the food you eat is reasonably safe. You have faith people who seem to like you today are likely to continue liking you tomorrow. You have faith that the skills that serve you so well today will likely serve you well next week. You may even have faith [probably rather shaken after Billdo and Shrillery] that at least some government people would like to see the nation continue. You have faith that your computer will function the next time you boot it. You may have faith that you'll get some thrill the next time you have sexual relations. You have faith that when you go to brush your teeth, your neural pathways will function right and you won't poke your eye out. You have a kind of faith that the government will take too much of your income in taxes. You have a kind of faith that people like Billdo and Shrillery will go on being destructive.
You probably have a faith that you won't find any philosophical/religious cause for a valid cosmology including a created origin for man and the universe as we know it.
However, all of the above are probabilities.
We think we know enough to predict the sun's survival well beyond our lifetimes. But that is faith in our own brilliance about an object that could well have a few secrets left undiscovered by our distant eyes.
In a world made-up primarily of uncertainties--probabilities at best--FAITH is an absolute necessity to avoid despairing or at least dysfunctional synaptic catatonic immobility.
You have evidently chosen to invest your faith in a construction on reality that you probably believe affords you more options, more choice. I happen to believe that the targets of your faith investments even now and certainly ultimately will devastatingly restrict your choices to fewer and fewer options.
CJL:
Somehow, if God wanted us to be childlike, I suspect he would've made us more childlike.
So, You KNOW enough about all such to judge that God couldn't possibly decide it's qualitatively better somehow for individuals to learn over 70 or so years the art of being child-like instead of childish--through the intricacies of being sandpaper and polishing cloth for each other--hopefully while being in dialogue with God?
You KNOW enough about all such to judge that God is somehow stupid or illogical or whatever such to avoid starting with what He wants to end up with?
Have you ever sculpted? Wove fabric? Made a lot of pots on a wheel? painted landscapes? landscaped?
Evidently God thinks THE PROCESS is at least as important as "product" aspects of the end result. But obviously God doesn't know as much as you do. ( / satire)
GOODNESS! You seem to live in a very tiny universe. In any case, in my experience as a clinical psychologist, you are simply wrong.
Not all "visions" are hallucinations by any means. Visions can occur for a variety of reasons. Mental/neural dysfunction is just one. Emotional dysfunction is just one. Your statement comes more out of your world view than out of the body of truth about experiential reality.
Some "experts" think we know enough to make all kinds of outlandish statements. But there's lots we still don't know. There's a lot of "experts" trying to prove that ALL NDExperiences are merely chemical artifacts of traumatized brains. But there are many examples of seeing objects and aspects of settings unknown and inaccessible to any of the bodies involved at the original time.
There are many anecdotal examples of people having visions of loved ones being safe or dying which later turn out to be exactly accurate. Chemical happenstance in the brain is a GROSSLY INADEQUATE explanation. Accepting such an explanation takes more faith in chance chaotic firings of neurons than I could begin to have.
I find myself beginning to feel sadder for you. I understand the need to have reality in tidy little boxes. But it's kind of sad to observe someone who REALLY seems to think/live as though they've SUCCESSFULLY so packaged reality.
Each of the red highlighted statements manifest his placing priority of the author's will over God's will. This is fundamentally why a relationship isn't possible, even when God Himself has provided the propitiation for all sin to allow the opportunity for a relationship by man with God when man holds this type of view.
There is evidence of God allowing a relationship between Himself and man prior to the the birth of Jesus Christ and His bodily death on the cross in many portions of the Old Testament. Those things counted as righteousness in Abraham for one and the original relationship between God and Adam before the the sin in the Garden of Eden is another. Lot provided a testing ground which also displays His favor even when man greatly suffers.
We also understand that with Christ's bodily death on the cross, he descended for three days into hell and conquered death as well. There are indications in Scripture that those persons held in Paradise or in Abraham's bosom as distinct from that area reserved for the unrighteous, were brought to heaven when Christ ascended. Today, the protocol is a tad different in that a New Covenant exists wherein each man/woman is able to have a relationship with God because of that Perfect Sacrifice.
The relationship between each person and God is discernable by God. He also allows us to have fellowship with Him provided we access via that door (His rules, His will, none other).
I applaud respect for one's father and mother, but it also needs to be understood that the relationship between them and God also has privacy from our judgment.
A point was mentioned regarding fairness/justice/ regarding all equally... It might also be noted that God is Perfect righteousness. Even if a predecessor didn't know the name of 'Jesus Christ', since the Lord created all things, then evidence exists in all things of His existence. Christ also has many hundreds of names, so there has always been enormous opportunity to understand and have a relationship with God through Christ. Unlike before, though, the authority of Satan to bind man upon death has been clearly shown as false and impotent. These issues not only involve men but others in His creation. An enjoyable study though for those so inclined.
I think, often, of faith as a kind of "in-process" trust. "The substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
I see trust as a more mature, graduated faith. The faith has proven true sooo extensively soooo often that it is almost not faith any more--it has a kind of certainty about it that is MORE settled, MORE confident, MORE matter-of-fact.
But, I think they are a lot interchangeable. So, I suppose, in many--most of the areas I noted, trust could be used. I would still see that trust as a kind of faith. One can call one's Faith in God a certainty, a trust--in God's faithfulness--as He IS the ultimate in trustworthiness. . . though He sometimes has interesting twists compared to what we expected would be the resulting package. . . it can take different forms than expected. . . another topic.
Why should any more attention be paid any man than the death of Christ on the cross, except by His grace alone?
About 20 yrs go I was a hard charging Lieutenant of Marines, well-educated, could hold my own intellectually with the best of them, had 5 yrs at a most competitive institute in science and engineering witho only 4-5 hrs of sleep per night continuously for several years. My duties at the time included running alongside junior Marines for several hundred yards parallel to heavy machine gun fire and down range of artillery and tank fire, exposed to essentially to every form of conventional weaponry and then some and could keep a clear head when observing the ground around us peppered with .50 cal fire to grab a handful of Marines and throw them in a ditch to stay safe.
It was a typical day's work and we'd continue for about 4-6 weeks at a time and then get a weekend off. In the evenings, I'd return to a barracks, a single rack in a concrete tilt-wall room and read a little before I fell asleep.
I'd vary my reading literature between history, philosophy, science, mathematics, engineering, architecture, and some religious material, but was basically agnostic to atheist in my beliefs at the time. I had prayed to God and felt I was Christian at age of about 7, but had essentially fallen away or become carnal in many areas since that time, but worldly in many of my views.
In epistemology, there are 6-15 issues which arise regarding the theory of knowledge which have very real and distinct meanings and the variation of emphasis in one or two of these make the difference of entire philosophical systems. These issues include, meaning, truth, justification, memory, logic, belief, psychological certainty, insight, intuition, faith, naming, identity, to mention a few major topics.
One evening as I was contemplating what to read, a simple argument dawned upon me,...how could I consider myself well educated if I hadn't even read the Bible all the way through, and yet I could read Kant, Peirce, and quantum theory. It really seemed a bit lop-sided. So I began reading some Scripture. I noticed how some key passages in Scripture indicated that one was saved by faith and not by works, while another indicated that we are to believe in Him and we would be saved.
Herein I had a simple question.
I understood that secularly, entire philosohphical frameworks cold hinge upon to choice of one of these words, yet here within Scripture, which I trusted at the time was at least time tested by many rigorous matured, devout, studious, followers, seemed to use these terms in a distinct fashion.
So I studied their use a bit, but discovered that regardless, the issue of salvation touched in one case upon faith and seemingly upon belief in another, but I knew there was discernable differences between the two, but didn't understand the difference. So I mad a very simple prayer (be careful, the simple prayers somehow seem to be the ones that get answered and for some reason I always get my ass kicked when they do, but out of well-deserved divine discipline I might add).
I prayed simply, after confessing my sins, through Christ, that if it was His will, for me to be shown the difference between faith and belief.
Oh, how little I knew at the time.
About a week later, maybe several nights later, I was in bed, just finished Wittenstein's Philosophical Investigations, and remember thinking to myself that Austin's 'private language' was a much better educated and concise rendition of much of Wittenstein's effort, and went to sleep. While asleep, I became conscious that some person seemed to be encroaching upon my room as though a prowler or a thief. I was asleep, but aware yet unable to move or awake. At that moment somebody grabbed my ankle, I awoke, and leapt out of bed.
Upon leaping, I essetially kipped myself up out of bed and turned to stand, but the person in the roon still had a grasp on my ankle as I was hitting the floor with my other leg and I stumbled, nearly falling on my face from being thrown off balance by the grasp. The grasp was similar to that one would feel if somebody wore a rubber Halloween gorilla glove, but with sharp fingernails, almost claw like, extraordinarily strong hand grasp, large, but not body temperature, almost a cold blooded thing.
The grasp sprung free and I was fully awake from within the bed to now standing by the light switch in the room. The room was about 20'x20' adjoined to another parallel room by a restroom with mirror imaging doors into the restroom. I had a small light on in the other room and had immediately leapt from the bed, came out swinging, thinking one of my fellow Lieutenants must have snuck into the room and was messing with me as a practical joke. But when I turned on the light, there was nobody there.
I immediately searched the room. No carpet, two closets, concrete walls, ceiling, and a sink. Doors were solid core, with dead bolts in both rooms. The room I slept in had a door with 2 locks, and no key to them, so access was only by the other room through the bathroom. I searched both rooms quickly simply by walking through and returning to the light switch by the bedroom door.
Sometime about then, I felt I must have been dreaming, yet I distinctly and vividly remembered the grasp of my ankle and the sense I had that somebody had been in my room. I was pinching myself and had was certain I was awake, yet couldn't figure out how this could have happened.
About then, I felt somebody immediately behind me, over my shoulder, as though they were breathing on me. No touch, but a sense as though somebody had invaded your 'private space' or the similar feeling as though you're in the kitchen with an open cupboard door near the back of your head/neck, which you don't touch but the sound or air near your 'private space' sort of reminds you the door is open even though you forgot you had opened the cabinet,...that sort of feeling, except, a great deal of fear and sense of impending danger or threat of something about to strike me loomed.
I turned around to fight the person, yet nobody was there.
Again, I thought to myself, I must be imagining things, this must be some weird sleeping mental state or awakening state where I'm not thinking straight, and I turned again all around just to make sure nothing was there, but calmed myself, that nothing existed.
As I was standing there, once again I felt the same presence, in my private space, and have never been so terrified in my life. I sincerely felt as though something was about to strike me, when I simply blurted out "In the name of Jesus Christ, be gone." Please note, that at that time of my life I wasn't a Bible thumper, agnostic to carnal Christian is about as gracious a description one could attempt to label me if liberally emphasizing any righteousness in me. So this appeal, wasn't with any power I had in mind, it was simply a desparate appeal for help and this in a time of my life when witnessing .50cal rounds pepper the area within feet of me didn't strike fear merely well rational response.
Within a split second of uttering these words, in a simple desparate appeal, the presensce left and I heard a noise in the other room.
(The following is testimony to how carnal and unbelieving I was at the time) I immediately thought to myself,..Ah-Ha , I was right, one of my Lieutenant buddies is messing with me, and I immediately rushed into the other room and blocked the door,..the only route of access or egress.
By this time all lights were on and I was quickly walking darting about to and fro checking behind a sofa and speakers for any indication of trespass and ready to pummel any violator.
I discovered a plaque which had set on my speakers for at least 6 monthes undisturbed, was now sprawled on the floor, explaining the noise I heard on the far side of the room away from the door.
All doors were still dead bolted from the inside and double locked. I searched the area twice, to no avail. I then carefully opened the one door to the outside and blocked the exit corridor so nobody or animal could escape without my observation. It was deadly calm outside, cold enough in the desert air that all ventilation in the building had been sealed, and no footprints in the sand outside.
All this took place in a rather short period of time, to where even without effort, I probably would have observed any theif in the night attempting to leave the vicinity regardless of my perceptions or intuition, yet, I returned and bolted the door again and double checked to make sure the person hadn't doubled back on me.
I rechecked the rooms several times, pinched myself, took a shower to make sure I was awake and then slept with the lights on,...(what the hell, why not.)
Upon closer review, several things dawned on me. First, the distinction between faith and belief. When I evoked the name of Christ, if anything, I probably didn't believe very much about Christianity. I definitely didnt have psychological certainty about Christ. I did however, appeal to His name,...again not in psychological belief, bt rather in a simple faith. There existed and remains in me a basic faith that He is God incarnate, a Perfect Sacrifice. That He is real and does exist. Similar to my typing this response on a computer where I have faith that another person is out there who I am typing this testimonial as an addressee,....although in this faith I see much mire evidence substatiating and bearing further testimony to His (not only existence, but) Sovereignty.
I also consider that the odds of my sensing something, perceiving something, both asleep and awake, and then simply blurting out some sound, yet physical objects moved within a split second of that response in another room, without proximate explicable cause other than the existence of another person,...the odds of that simply being happenstance seem much further removed than the acceptance of the existence of some other person in that room with me that night.
Remarkably, if such a person existed, the behavior observed, perceived, and exhibited is remarkably consistant with that described by many others as that of either a fallen angel or power or principality, which if so powerful, still immediately responded to the name of Jesus Christ.
I find it much more plausible that any man in that situation who fails to acknowledge God, to be more heinous than one who would simply humble themselves and at least get a clue that maybe, just maybe... God exists. Quite a bit more can be said about this and I recognize that there isn't any evidence I can provide to show any third man that this happened,..but then again, this is merely what I described it to be,...a simple testimonial. A funny thing about how heinous I am,....you see,...and this is so true of so many men scarred in our lack of faith in Him,...I still will approach this issue from a point of view of trying to be 'scientific' or to evidence and fully describe what occurred, when quite truthfully, it really doesn;t matter. What mattered is and was for us all, all persons, man and otherwise, to follow His will and not our own. All else is vanity.
Pardon me, I think I understand what you are saying, but may I ask if circumstantial evidence would be enough to convince you? Science seems to confirm much more often the presence of the Creator's hands than it discounts Him.
The example of our universe, in its laws, order, form, and seemingly timeless (even eluded to by the brilliant mind of Steven Hawkin) consistantly testify to the NATURE of this Creator. I wish I could prove beyond all doubt - for you - that this Creator we call God, is available to "manifest" Himself to you, but it is not my calling to be a defense attorney for His Most High. I guess this is why each of us are responsible for our own relationship to Him. If I or anyone else could "prove" God outside of faith - faith would become abjunct, and the need to seek God from a desire grounded in love would be discounted.
Personally, I hope you find the spiritual peace and comfort this God has freely offered and reserved just for you....
Az
As for the sacrifices the believers went through, if that proves a religion's veracity then we'd all better convert to Scientology. Scientologist go through a lot, though most of the really nasty stuff they deal with comes from their BS "church". True believers make sacrifices, that's what they do, if it wasn't for true believers making sacrifices we wouldn't have a nation.
I will not do that here as that would be rude.
I won't create a thread for that as I really could care less if anybody else is an atheist. Just suffice it to say, "I believe in only one less god than you and over 4000 gods have been alleged to exist at one point or another in human history."
I am not responsible for how you think about life, the universe, and everything. That's up to you. I am not about to proselytize atheism, there's no point. If you question your faith and become an atheist, that's your business, not mine.
Or demonstrates the degree of logical thought you are caapable of
Definitely the former, since it has happened. Maybe the latter, since one debate is only an indication not a measure of logical thought. I could be having a particularly on or off day.
I wasn't asking whether it would be evidence to other Christians. I was asking whether it would be evidence to himself, given a clean bill of mental health by the professionals. He dismissed the possibility as a fantasy scenario, which, whether it is or isn't, avoids the question.
Y'see one of the things I've noticed about some skeptics is the denial of personal experience on their part. Even if it isn't verifiable in any scientific way, the fact remains that personal experience affects a person's belief. Skeptics would deny the evidence of the senses; in this case LuvIt isn't even willing to consider the possibility of a scenario that would not fit in with his worldview.
The point I'm make is not so much for LuvIt's notice -- though it would be nice if he did catch it -- as much as for other readers of this thread.
I'm not sure who you're classifying as ignorant fishermen but it shouldn't be the prophets. Most of them were doing pretty well in the world (well enough for the crucifixion to take place in the estate of one of them. As for whether they could fool the leaders how difficult that is depends on a lot of things. Jesus said he'd be back within their generation. He didn't come back, something went wrong, whether yo believe or not it's clear that things didn't go according to plan, the apologists have confronted it and I'm not challenging their explanation just pointing it out (note it is possible that Jesus and a few followers just plain bailed, certain legends and archeological finds have been put together that show a group of early Christian went east, hooked through Persia and settled in India, where a group that didn't know they were Christian but were was found during the missionary years of colonialism). If he was dead it's easy, they were in the desert, I live in the desert, you give me over night to transport and bury a body and the only way it's getting found is if somebody builds something there, of course if I seed it with lime they won't even find it then. Even alive it's not that hard to hide in the desert, as the Bedouins taught the Germans in WWI.
Here's my base scenario:
Clearly some form of fix was in, this crucifixion didn't happen right, it wasn't on a road into Jerusalem, the public was far away, the executioner expressed sympathy but didn't act mercifully, the victim wasn't left up there litterally to rot.
Just as clearly something went wrong, the spear wound screwed everything up. Now it was, arguably, a belly wound, belly wounds are almostalways fatal without modern medical attention, but they take a long time to die from (they're fatal because they usually release toxins from the stomack or intestines which slowly poison the wounded person, IMHO one of the worst ways to go).
I'm guessing Jesus wasn't dead when he went into the tomb. At some point that night somebody cracks the tomb open to get him somewhere to recover. Son of God or not, dead or just wounded, you'll probably need some time to recover from a day like that.
At this juncture I think this is where things go way off track. Jesus dies and now the few that were in on the fix (note, these folks still could believe his devineness and be working on something like this, recent events show that people will still follow a religious leader even when the veil has been lifted a little) got some problems. They believe him, and are figuring that he'll probably be back anyway, but it's not going to go the way he outlined. Triumphantly walking back into Jerusalem in a few weeks is now right out. What to do?
Have somebody open the tomb in public. Even when I was young I was always suspicious about this. Why open the tomb. In the desert bodies stink, they stink bad. 3 days in an above ground tomb would not leave things pleasant, seeing the body would not improve one's faith (unless one was really messed up in the head), and the vomitting that would happen when the smell hits would greatly impede one's ability to even see the body. Ah, but if you already know there isn't a body it's a no brainer. Open the tomb, exclaim how it's empty, ah he is risen. Now what you have is a Jesus that still "walking the earth" but nobody can see him.
At least that's my hyper cynical explaination.
Most of my education has been gained through reading on my own, answering questions for others, and discussions. This being the latter, I'd ask for your references with regard to the Tanak.
BTW, I believe most, if not all books, have to with God and his ways. Few parts of the Bible inspire me with awe and reverence for God, more than James Gleick's Chaos, Steven Levy's Artificial Life, the poems of Rudyard Kipling, and the Dames Point Bridge in Jacksonville. For the last 3, if we are created as images of God and we can do what is portrayed and Levy's book and created by Kipling and the bridge, imagine what God can do. Gleick's book clues me in somewhat more to that.
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