Posted on 01/03/2002 11:19:13 AM PST by ArGee
A very rich man decided that he wanted to show kindness to the people of the fair city where he lived. Since he was very rich indeed, he decided to throw a banquet for the entire city. He rented the largest sports arena in the city and began his plans. He planned for huge amounts of the best food possible, making allowances for every religious and medical diet. He advertised the banquet in every possible manner - television, radio, billboard, door-to-door canvassing. Considering that there might be some who could not travel, he arranged for free bus transportation to and from the event, and some special-needs vehicles for all who could not ride busses. He even scheduled the banquet to run for 24 hours a day for several days so that everyone could be sure of being served.
He planned long and hard and finally the big day came. The rich man ate quickly and then went about wishing all his guests well and personally making sure that all had every need met. After a while he went outside to tour the grounds and talk with those who had not yet gone in, and those who had already left. Everyone was happy. Many were profusely thankful. It was a glorious occasion.
At one point the rich man noticed a group of people sitting outside a locked door with most unpleasant looks on their faces. Sensing they were not happy, he went over to them. He did not introduce himself but simply asked them if he could be of service.
"We want to go in through this door," one of them replied.
The rich man explained to them that the hall was arranged to feed a large number of people as quickly and effortlessly as possible. This required order inside, and the entrances and exits had been carefully planned to be as efficient as possible. He then offered to go call one of the golf carts that were avaialbe to help people who could not walk far to take them to the entrance. But the man replied, "We do not want to go in the entrance. We want to go in this door. We don't understand why we can't go in any door we wish. We think the man who set this banquet up is mean and hateful for insisting we go in through the entrance. He has tried to bill himself as a very kind man by offering this banquet, but he is not kind at all if he will not indulge us and let us go through this door.
The rich man was distressed at these words, but still attempted to please these people. He tried once more to explain to them what was behind this particular door, and how if they went in this door they would disrupt the meal service being offered inside. He offered to drive them himself, not only to the door, but inside the hall to their tables if they would only go through the entrance to enjoy the meal. Again the man said, "No, but only a hateful man would keep us from going through the door of our choosing. And we will sit here and tell anyone who will listen to us what an awful man he is until he lets us in."
At that the rich man was enraged and he shouted, "Enough." Then he called a police officer to have them thrown off of the property and ordered that they not be allowed to return until the banquet was over and all the scraps had been hauled away. Then, mourning for their loss, he turned to visit with other guests.
Pray that I never give you a reason to change your mind about me.
Shalom.
Ahhh, I see now. You believe that you have to read a single book differently than you would read any other book.
I understand now why you have a lower standard for what you call evidence than do I.
I am sorry that you are limiting yourself so completely. I did not say that biology is invalid. I said that it had to recognize that beings are not subject solely to physical laws.
G-d is not a repeatable experiment. But then, how many times do you have to destroy the first-born of Egypt for people to get the message?
I will pray for you, but I believe you and I have danced all of the dance and gotten nowhere. But if you think otherwise, post away.
Shalom.
I'm going to guess that you didn't get much out of the Illiad, either.
You don't seem to understand literary devices very well.
G-d is above you, but He is not up in the sky.
Shalom.
The only place I've ever seen a claim of that was in a book that is no different than The Iliad. Do you have some independently verifiable evidence to back up this claim about your alleged god killing the firstborn of a nation? OOOPS! I forgot, you first must present that independently verifiable evidence that this alleged god exists before you can convince me of the second condition.
Now, don't get rude, but what does that mean?
Are you a Christian? Do you believe that God creates everything? Then what is "independently verifiable evidence"?
Independent of what?
Actually, I got a lot out of The Iliad.
You don't seem to understand literary devices very well.
Ahhhhhhh, so now you agree with me and The Bible is nothing more than literature, no different than The Iliad. I'm glad we came to some form of agreement here!
G-d is above you, but He is not up in the sky.
So what you are saying here is that from a literary viewpoint, YHWH is no different from Zeus or Odin and the Biblical "Heaven" is identical to the "Mount Olympus" of Greek mythology or the "Asgard" or Norse mythology as literary devices. We really are coming to agreement here! I had no idea I would convince you of my viewpoint and had no intention of that when I started posting on this thread!
My purpose in posting here was really to demonstrate the fallacious nature of your analogy where the faithless are concerned.
Now, don't get rude, but what does that mean?
Are you a Christian? Do you believe that God creates everything? Then what is "independently verifiable evidence"?
Answers:
1) No
2) No
3) As with the scientific method, any evidence presented to me to support the assertion that any god(s) exist must have results which are independently reproducable and falsifiable.
Independent of what?
The presenter of the evidence, of course.
Oh. I thought we were talking about Christianity. Christianity is the Club 54 for those who want to go to heaven.
I apologize for my mistake.
No one can logically prove that God does exist or that God does not exist.
I believe there is a Higher Being. I do not believe that any man has ever had verifiable access to the nature and properties of the Higher Being.
Religion exists to give man aid and comfort in dealing with that which is not knowable or not understandable. They assign specific attributes to the Higher Being to give aid and comfort in specific cases.
All too often, those same attributes cause even greater pain and suffering when applied to a different situation. Many religions try to solve these unforeseen consequences by creating more attributes. These additional attributes then cause other unforeseen consequences ad infinitum.
The end result is that many religions cause more pain and suffering than would have ever existed without those religions.
I'd be very interested in the scriptural proof. Seems contradictory that God would say "this is the only way" then make exceptions for people depending on extenuating circumstances. Then again, if God is just, He must be fair to all people, and cannot hold those who never heard His word accountable for something they didn't know.
This is a major sticking point for many Chinese, who revere their ancestors and want the best for them in the afterlife--who wouldn't? So far, I have not found a satisfactory answer from mainstream Christianity.
Let me recommend a wonderful book that I just finished. It's called "Safely Home" by Randy Alcorn. It deals entirely with the church in China, and there's even some stuff to speak directly to your question.
Sounds like a fascinating book. Thanks for the reference. I'll check my local bookstore.
Come to the Table.
Thank you for the invitation. I accept your kindness and willingness to share something so wonderful.
Will the "rich man" likewise issue an invitation to me? How will I recognize it and Him when the invitation comes?
Shalom (Peace unto you as well)
(Which is what I've been saying all along.)
To: ArGeeI disagree. Everytime you tell me my experience is invalid you put me down.
So what you are saying here is I have to accept your unverifiable evidence and become a Christian just like you. SHEESH!
You experience is invalid for me. It is unacceptable as evidence for me. I cannot reproduce it or falsify it, that's the standard for scientific evidence and what I require.
You establish a standard of proof that has never been acceptable for living things, then demand I meet that standard.
The standard is the scientific method. I can accept nothing less.
Unfortunately, when dealing with living things, you can't use the repeatable and verifiable experiment model. You have to use the statistical model because living things have will and so are subject to factors beyond simple physical laws. Large samples are required to prove anything about living things.
What you are saying here is Biology is invalid. I don't accept that. The scientific method of verification is all I will accept, nothing less.
942 posted on 1/5/02 2:33 PM Pacific by LuvItOrLeaveIt
All throughout this thread, you have been repeating the above. It is obvious that we (the Believers) cannot (or haven't yet) been able to convince you of how we got to where we are, or of the things that have convinced us to get to this place.
You have NOT, however, tried to get any of US to change sides by painting a fictional word picture of how YOU got to where you are. I can appreciate that. You didn't start a thread asking for input.
I guess my question is: CAN you do that? Do you have any evidence, that passes YOUR standard, to show us? Can you tell us of your experience?
Maybe the whole idea was Abraham's in the first place, and God intervened to prevent him from doing something stupid.
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