Posted on 01/03/2002 11:19:13 AM PST by ArGee
A very rich man decided that he wanted to show kindness to the people of the fair city where he lived. Since he was very rich indeed, he decided to throw a banquet for the entire city. He rented the largest sports arena in the city and began his plans. He planned for huge amounts of the best food possible, making allowances for every religious and medical diet. He advertised the banquet in every possible manner - television, radio, billboard, door-to-door canvassing. Considering that there might be some who could not travel, he arranged for free bus transportation to and from the event, and some special-needs vehicles for all who could not ride busses. He even scheduled the banquet to run for 24 hours a day for several days so that everyone could be sure of being served.
He planned long and hard and finally the big day came. The rich man ate quickly and then went about wishing all his guests well and personally making sure that all had every need met. After a while he went outside to tour the grounds and talk with those who had not yet gone in, and those who had already left. Everyone was happy. Many were profusely thankful. It was a glorious occasion.
At one point the rich man noticed a group of people sitting outside a locked door with most unpleasant looks on their faces. Sensing they were not happy, he went over to them. He did not introduce himself but simply asked them if he could be of service.
"We want to go in through this door," one of them replied.
The rich man explained to them that the hall was arranged to feed a large number of people as quickly and effortlessly as possible. This required order inside, and the entrances and exits had been carefully planned to be as efficient as possible. He then offered to go call one of the golf carts that were avaialbe to help people who could not walk far to take them to the entrance. But the man replied, "We do not want to go in the entrance. We want to go in this door. We don't understand why we can't go in any door we wish. We think the man who set this banquet up is mean and hateful for insisting we go in through the entrance. He has tried to bill himself as a very kind man by offering this banquet, but he is not kind at all if he will not indulge us and let us go through this door.
The rich man was distressed at these words, but still attempted to please these people. He tried once more to explain to them what was behind this particular door, and how if they went in this door they would disrupt the meal service being offered inside. He offered to drive them himself, not only to the door, but inside the hall to their tables if they would only go through the entrance to enjoy the meal. Again the man said, "No, but only a hateful man would keep us from going through the door of our choosing. And we will sit here and tell anyone who will listen to us what an awful man he is until he lets us in."
At that the rich man was enraged and he shouted, "Enough." Then he called a police officer to have them thrown off of the property and ordered that they not be allowed to return until the banquet was over and all the scraps had been hauled away. Then, mourning for their loss, he turned to visit with other guests.
God says in effect, "Love me, or you'll roast for all eternity".
Now imagine a human parent interacting with his child.
Would he be right in saying, "Love me, or I'll hold your hand over the kitchen stove burner"..?
Now that is not a bad deal, because I believe that God gave us those 70 odd years here on Earth and that we ought to return that love.
Fiery pit notwithstanding, the overwhelming majority of folks I've interacted with proclaiming Christianity as their faith, believe in the concept of hell and eternal torment for those who are not "saved".
This one I have to jump in on. It is most definitely possible to be bigoted against your own group. And I can prove it in two words: Jesse Jackson. Any perusal of his speaches will show that he believes the average black man is an illiterate moron that can't do anything without the help of government (and I do mean ANYTHING, I'm not sure Jesse thinks blacks can wipe their own hind ends). I once did a quote game with a JJ apologist I knew, though it was a little dishonest. I took 10 JJ quotes, told him that it was an uneven mix of quotes from JJ and David Duke and asked him to guess who said which, he assigned 7 of them to Duke.
From a psychological stand point they call it externalized self loathing. Basically a person is seriously dissatisfied with themselves for whatever reason, but rather than expressing it through the normal internalizations they have externalized it against the group they belong to. By belittling them (and through them belittle himself) he punishes himself indirectly.
Note, I am by no means saying this applies to you or what you've said. Just saying that you would be wrong to think that it's impossible to be bigoted against your own group(s).
perhaps there are more steps in the proposition which are implied. here one possibility:
Love me,
and if you do you will take my advice,
and if you do you will act wisely,
and if you do you will have no regrets,
and if you do you will not suffer endlessly.
just a thought.
Bad analogy, since with regard to God, it would be what my child decides, not I. Otherwise, the fact remains that making a choice with bad consequences is still a free choice.
From a Christian perspective, the analogy is still off, since the choice is between something good (heaven) and bad (Hell), not continuing life as is and Hell. In addition, the choice made that leads to Hell is often a choice between immediate gratification (sin) and delayed gratification (heaven).
That make my original analogy inaccurate. But, still, drinking too much alcohol can result in immediate pleasure, but eventual death.
The point being of course... that God is the one who sits in ultimate judgement of who suffers eternally, and who does not.
So it still comes down to... "Love me, or suffer forever".
Would he be right in saying, "Love me, or I'll hold your hand over the kitchen stove burner"..?
"Behave correctly or there will be consequences." '
Please note, I don't hold to the Christian belief of heaven&hell, considering I'm not Christian. I still think this is a misrepresentation of Christianity.
"Behave correctly (love me) or there will be consequences (I'll see to it that you slow-roast forever)."
This isn't a strict and independent behavior and consequences question, because God is in control of both the demands, and the horrific consequences meted out for failure to comply with the demands.
You and I agree completely on that score. The concept of eternal suffering in hell handed out by God, as a consequnce of failure to love him... is completely inconsistent with the notion of a loving God.
But it seems that most people identifying themselves as Christians would not agree.
that's not really my point.
a parent may tell a child "don't play with matches or you'll get burned" but it's not the same as saying "don't play with matches or i'll burn you"
i am suggested that eternal suffering *might* come from a sense of regret which arises naturally within a person or possibly from external forces set in motion by one's actions, as opposed to being dished out by God directly in the form of judgement and fire. but then again, i don't know whether any Christians here would agree with that.
This kind of breaks the analogy to a parent, though.
Like I said, I don't have a Christian view of God. In Genesis, Abraham argues with God, before Sodom, and gets God to alter his decision. Jacob makes demands of God He fulfills. So personally, I think God can be argued with and not everything is cast in stone....
Which is more similar to a parent/child relationship, IMO.
That's my whole point.
Maybe we're talking past each other.
No, not for the example I gave it doesn't.
In the God example, God says "Love me, or I'll see to it that you suffer for all eternity".
In the parent example, the parent says " Love me, or I'll burn your hand on the kitchen stove".
Both are examples of horribly demented coercements of "love", (as if love could be demanded of the giver by threatening him with horrific consequences).
And for the record, I understand that you're not defending the traditional Christian view of heaven and hell.
In Jesse Jackson's case - I don't believe Extraction Jackson's actions are motivated by self-loathing and an unrealized desire to punish himself indirectly. I've always gotten the impression that Jackson thinks a great deal of himself and that he has no problems with his self-esteem at all (although he should). I think that the motivation for his swindling is nothing more than a lust for greed & power.
Shalom.
A very rich man decided that he wanted to show kindness to the people of the fair city where he lived. Since he was very rich indeed, he decided to throw a banquet for the entire city. He rented the largest sports arena in the city and began his plans. He planned for huge amounts of the best food possible, making allowances for every religious and medical diet. He advertised the banquet in every possible manner - television, radio, billboard, door-to-door canvassing. Considering that there might be some who could not travel, he arranged for free bus transportation to and from the event, and some special-needs vehicles for all who could not ride busses. He even scheduled the banquet to run for 24 hours a day for several days so that everyone could be sure of being served.
He planned long and hard and finally the big day came. The rich man ate quickly and then went about wishing all his guests well and personally making sure that all had every need met. After a while he went outside to tour the grounds and talk with those who had not yet gone in, and those who had already left. Everyone was happy. Many were profusely thankful. It was a glorious occasion.
At one point the rich man noticed a group of people sitting outside the wall with most unpleasant looks on their faces. Seeing they were not happy, he went over to them to see if he could do something to make them happy. He did not introduce himself but simply asked them if he could be of service.
"We want to go in through this door," one of them replied.
Now, there was no door there, but someone had used chalk to draw the outline of a door on the wall. This confused the rich man greatly, but he decided to be polite. He explained to them that here was a door at the front of the hall and that everyone had to go in and out by the door. He then offered to go call one of the golf carts that were available to help people who could not walk far to take them to the doorBut the man replied, "We do not want to go in through your door. We want to go in this door. We don't understand why we can't just make our own door and go in. We think the man who set this banquet up is mean and hateful for insisting we go in through his door. He has tried to bill himself as a very kind man by offering this banquet, but he is not kind at all if he will not indulge us and let us go through our own door.
The rich man was distressed at these words, but still attempted to please these people. He tried to explain to them that they weren't trying to go in through a door, but through the wall. He emphasized that there was no way to go through the wall. Then He offered to drive them himself, not only to the door, but inside the hall to their tables if they would only go through the door to enjoy the meal. Again the man said, "No, but only a hateful man would keep us from going through the door of our making. And we will sit here and tell anyone who will listen to us what an awful man he is until he lets us in."
At that the rich man greatly saddened, "I hate to see you go hungry when there is so much plenty. If you will only go inside, you can eat. But if you will not go inside, there is nothing for me to do." Then, mourning for their loss, he turned to visit with other guests.
At some point he saw a crowd of people talking outside the hall. He went to see what they were saying. There appeared to be a group who had just finished eating. They were telling a group that had not been inside that there was wonderful food and urging them to go in and get some. One of those who hadn't eaten said, "How do we know there is food inside?"
They described to him what they had eaten but he just said, "Just because you say there is food doesn't mean there is food. We need to see it for ourselves. It isn't reasonable to think that a rich man will simply decide to feed an entire city. Rich men just don't behave that way - at least I would not behave that way if I were a rich man. You must have been brainwashed. Or perhaps they are trying to get people to join a multi-level marketing program. No, it doesn't make sense to me that there would be food inside. Since you can't prove there is, I am not going in."
They continued to urge them to go in, telling them they would know there is food inside if they would just go in and look. But they would not be convinced. After a time those who had eaten went their way satisfied, and those who had not eaten went away hungry.
In the Old Testament, Sheol is often used and can literally be translated as the grave or cold of the grave.
Many use the tale of Lazarus and the poor man to declare a fiery torment for sinners who do not repent. One would hope that they remember that is is a parable and should not be taken literally.
The question remains whether the reading is that if one does not love God, God will put that person in Hell; or if one does not love God, the result will be going to Hell, because God will not act to take an unsaved person into Heaven. One is God acting; the other is God failing to act. Distinct difference.
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