Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation??

Ask Father Murray Watson ^ | Father Murray

[Governor StrangeReno]

Coptic

[Governor StrangeReno]

sorry wrong question answered,'ounce' as in has a discernable halo and capable of curing people/doing things the book says can be done-but I've also met Buddhist monks with similar capabilities.

[Torie]

This is rather a confusing piece. It is not tightly written. It leaves ambiguous the fate of one who is aware of the teachings of Christ, but simply rejects his divinity, and chooses not be baptized. If this person leads a moral life, is the Catholic doctrine that we still don't know that person's fate, or that we don't know of any way such person can get to heaven, but then just because we don't know, doesn't mean there isn't a way, or as McGowan of FR said, that as long as one doesn't believe the Catholic of Christian doctrine is true, but leads a moral life, then there is not impediment to heaven.

Confusion seems to reign, for whatever reason.

[DallasDeb]

What you have posted implies that Muslims who worship Allah are going to heaven just because they are listening to their consciences.

Roman Catholics believe devout Muslims are saved.

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

The...uh...strict constructionist mistake is sort of a legalistic tendency to think of "the Church" (the "mystical Body of Christ") exclusively in terms of the institutional apparatus of its earthly manifestation. "The Church" is wherever two or more are gathered together in the Spirit of Christ.

"Baptism by desire" just requires whatever is going on in the soul of a person (a non-Catholic, for instance) and the ministrations of God's grace. No human agent or bureaucratic administration is in control of dispensing grace. "The Church" which is present in the "salvation" of such a soul is "the Mystical Body of Christ." Ecclesiologically speaking, "the Church" should never be confused with whatever earthly institutional structure happens to be representing it. It's a reality much more than that. Quite beyond the external corporate structure of any congregation, parish, diocese, bishops' conference, etc. Clericalism is not "the Church."

There is sometimes an eschatologically hubristic tendency for individual clergymen to think that they alone are "the Church." This is wrong. Since none of us are ever present in a situation to know the condition of a soul when a person actually dies, no one living knows who is ever saved or damned. Only God does. It's great whenever very holy Christians manage to mature into wise, loving, and devout clergymen. Since this is not always the case, obviously the mystical/invisible/spiritual dimension of the Church, the communion directly between God and souls, has priority.

[texson66]

Regradless of where you are spiritually, what are YOU doing to do about Christ?

Matt 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

WE all have to either accept Christ or to deny Him. Earthly institutions, good deeds, or intentions will NOT save anyone.

[ikurrina]

Thanks for posting the article.

Pope John Paul II, writes, at p. 198 of his book, "Crossing the Threshold":

"In fact, those who through no fault of their own are not aware of the Gospel of Christ and the Church, but who nonetheless search sincerely for God, and with the help of grace attempt to carry out His will, known through the dictates of their conscience – they too can attain eternal salvation.

"Nor will Divine Providence deny the help necessary for salvation to those who have not yet arrived at a clear knowledge and recognition of God, and who attempt, not without divine grace, to conduct a good life."

[k2blader]

...the Catholic one, the only one.

Hm, just for clarification, are you saying that the Catholic church is the "only Church" ?

That I, as a Baptist, am not part of the "only Church" and thus am not saved ?

[Semper]

God is leading some toward salvation through other religions? This comes from a Christian?

How does the golden rule apply here? In fact how does the golden rule apply to "Mine is the only true religion"?

[Theresa]

So you are saying that "all of humanity was excluded from salvation before Christ came, and that much of humanity (which has not had the opportunity to hear the Christian message until recently) was doomed to be eternally separated from God. This would imply a very cruel and elitist God. Our belief as Christians and Catholics is that God desires the salvation of all people … even those who are not Christian. How he achieves that, however, is a mystery. But we know that our God is a loving God who would not allow people to suffer on account of an ignorance that they were not responsible for."

An ignorance they were NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR!!!!!!! Try to understand this. It is not that hard.

[Down South P.E.]

Maybe some of you good ol folk can give the scripture reference as it's slipped my mind. Amen

Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way which seemeth right unto man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

How about 2 Timothy 4:3,4 " For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears; And they shall turn away from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

[GrandMoM]

That statement is often used to imply that Catholics believe only THEY will be saved.

That is exactly what they taught us in the 50's at Catholic school, and we were not allowed to have friends from those other religions.

Through the years I have learned the statement (posted by My2Cents) .below to be the truth.

One is not saved through the church, but saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

[My2Cents]

With all due respect to Pope John Paul II, if one can attain salvation through a sincere, but unenlightened, pursuit of God, particularly through good deeds, then what is the purpose of Christ's death? As others have pointed out, Jesus identified himself as "the way, the truth, and the life...NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME." If there an another way to eternal life and communion with God other than through Jesus Christ, then Jesus lied about his role in the redemption of man.

[My2Cents]

"The Church" is wherever two or more are gathered together in the Spirit of Christ.

Amen to that!

[Rum Tum Tugger]

However, Vatican II also taught that, within every human heart, God places the law of conscience. Everybody has a deep sense of right and wrong which ultimately comes from God, and which will lead people to God if they attempt to follow their conscience faithfully. Because Jesus is God, those who move in the direction of God (even non-Christians) are ultimately moving in the direction of Jesus. And if they are moving in the direction of Jesus and His truth, ultimately they are expressing a desire for the salvation that God gives. The Church teaches that, while it is certainly easier to receive salvation as a Christian, it is not impossible to receive salvation in other religions.

Can you or anyone give me a Vatican II source for that teaching?

[Semper]

Suffice it to say that the Church in this phrase is none other than the Catholic one, the only one.

Does that mean it is the only one which has child molesters in its clergy?

[Ragtime Cowgirl]

God bless Christians.

The DNC is going to have to add Catholics to "right-wing Bible believers" in order to avoid hypocrisy or shed light on their own religious mis-understanding in the upcoming Dem. campaign to paint the Christian right as the Taliban's equivalent.

We've so thoroughly shut God out of the public debate that these grown Dems. can actually be ignorant enough to compare God's command to "love your neighbor" in the Bible that all Christians follow (even those churches where Hillary and John Edwards go to condemn Republicans during election years), with the Koran's missive from Allah to kill infidels.

Worldlings in the press should not report on non-secular matters, IMHO.

[Rum Tum Tugger]

"the way, the truth, and the life...NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME."

How do you then deal with the issue of people who never had an opportunity to know anything about Jesus? What is their status?

[Down South P.E.]

Are you so smug as to think that just hearing the gospel once or twice could overcome all that conditioning?

Certainly, provided their heart is receptive and the Holy Spirit permits it. Don't sell the Lord short there. You would be smug to think that the Lord could not accomplish this.

[Ragtime Cowgirl]

Worldlings in the press should not report on non-secular matters, IMHO.

I was not referring to Father Murray here!