Posted on 01/02/2002 1:15:38 PM PST by Theresa
That bit can't be right. Some consciences are twisted. Maybe Hitler thought sincerely he was doing right as he saw the right.
I've read the quote from Mother Theresa (who's work I respect very much...I have a cousin who was adopted from one of the orphanages that Mother Theresa helped run), but the problem that opens for me is that it is more of the "all roads lead to God" theology that I can not accept.
Aside from being a doctrine heavily promoted by New Age philosophy, it flies in the face of simple logic. If it was not necessary for Jesus to die for our sins, then why would He have put Himself through all that. I mean, why step down from His rightful place of glory, humble Himself by becoming a man (as scripture teaches us) and then allow Himself to suffer and be put to a cruel death by the very ones He created? If "all roads lead to heaven" then God didn't need to do any of that....we could all just find our own way, or at least some way that didn't involve Jesus going to the cross for us.
Jesus said "I am the way [not just one way], the truth [not a version of truth] and the light [not one among many]".
This does not in any way discount the wonderful works of charity and kindness that Mother Theresa and thousands like her over the ages have done in God's name. The Bible tells us that if we have true faith we will also have good works (the one is a natural outpouring of the other), but it is also very clear that salvation is by faith alone.
Peace.
The concept of an "original" sin having been committed must also be acknowledged to participate in the discussion.
If neither is acknowledged, comments by churches and antiquity translations are meaningless.
What has one to say if they do not accept the original guilt trip?
So, Dave are you saying here that you have to be a member of the Catholic (captiol C) Church to gain salvation?
Becky
The Mormons also make a statement, "we are the one true church". Which is a bunch of poppy-cock.
The true "church" consists of true believers; be they Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and even us Fundamentalists, etc.
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Not necessarily. RCs believe that it's possible for devout Muslims to be saved by Christ. But it hinges on many caveats -- it presupposes the fact that such a devout Muslim never heard the Gospel, never was exposed to Christianity. A Muslim is accountable for informing his conscience to the best of his ability, and if he were exposed to the truth of the Gospel and did not further investigate, then he would be culpable for his own ignorance in that case. However, there would be mitigating circumstances -- was he briefly exposed? had he been brainwashed into thinking Christianity was evil? etc. These types of things could be considered extenuating circumstances.
However, the point is, it's no simple "Follow your conscience, and you're in." That attitude belies a presumption of God's mercy, and is a grave sin in itself. I think the better way of phrasing it is that "Salvation is possible outside formal membership within Christianity."
That depends on whether they have participated in the proper formation of an informed conscience to the best of their abilities (i.e. - if they were part of a child sacrificing cult, and they had a nagging sense that something was wrong with throwing children to the pits of flames and spikes, that they took the necessary steps, no matter how dangerous, to figure out if this was right).
It is not "smug" to believe that God can overcome any obstacles to belief in Jesus Christ, including Hinduism, Islam, or any other false religions.
The arm of the Lord is never too short to save those He has chosen as His own...
-penny
This, of course, is very hypothetical. A sane man anywhere in today's world would have to have a sense of wrongness about child sacrifices.
There is a lot of wiggle room in this statement created by the word knowing. Certainly if one was never exposed to the RC teachings, one could not know. If were exposed (as might be the case for a Muslim) they may still not know in the sense that they do not believe.
Does this Vatican II fuzzy statement supercede the previous black and white statements?
This, of course, is very hypothetical. A sane man anywhere in today's world would have to have a sense of wrongness about child sacrifices.
At this point in the hypothetical, I fear we would be forced to make too great an assumption. You either assume that the person has *no* moral qualms within his consciousness whatsoever about sacrificing children, or assume that he *does* have some sort or presence of internal convulsion, either great or small, that suggests the act is wrong. I think that someone of the Judeo-Christian fold would tend toward assuming that in all humanity there is the law of God imprinted upon the soul that, at the least, would send off at least some sort of internal moral incongruity in sacrificing a child, at some level in the individual.
However, that said, I would just back up to the general statement that the Catholic position regards a person's willingness to not only follow their conscience, but also suitably inform that conscience to the best of their abilities. This becomes a subjective matter that is left up to God to determine (that is, how culpable a person is with regard to their own participation in the formation of conscience). Discussing this relative to a child-sacrificing pagan seems to be a moot point since we'd be trying to do it in a vacuum. All a Catholic could say with regard to that individual's salvation would be that it would be possible for God to save the person.
When the voice of the Pope speaks on matters of morality, salvation and Church Doctrine the truth of those pronouncements is infallible; unarguable and absolute.
It is actually the voice of God speaking through the Pope.
When Becky asks SoothingDave "are you saying here that you have to be a member of the Catholic (captiol C) Church to gain salvation?" his answer must be a resounding "YES!"
Iowegian has presented an unimpeachable set of historical Papal pronouncements that makes this basic article of Catholic faith abundantly clear.
There is no interpretive argument possible here on such a fundamental point of Catholic Doctrine.
Salvation is a matter of how we respond to the truth we are given in life. Only for those who have encountered the fullness of truth in Christ is a formal proclamation of belief in Christ necessary.
The web site is located at http://www.cc.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/salvation.html
Amazing! I bookmarked this bad boy.
Grace is an act? I'm sure that we've been told that grace and works were not the same. Grace is a gift. Since when did we earn a gift?
The Greek word for gift is charis. It is also used for grace. I go to work for a paycheck, not a gift.
I am saved through grace, and not by my own actions.
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