Posted on 01/02/2002 1:15:38 PM PST by Theresa
There is considerable confusion about the Catholic teaching of salvation. I found this on the internet. It was written by a former Presbyterian who became Catholic as an adult. It should be easy to understand he explains the docterine very well. .........
The phrase (in Latin, "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" or "Outside the Church there is no salvation") is a very ancient one, going back to the very early days of Christianity. It was originally meant to affirm the necessity of baptism and Christian faith at a time when
(a) A number of Christians were being tempted under torture to renounce their faith and deny Christ. (He's talking about the Roman Empire and Nero's persecution of Christians, throwing them to lions and such.) (b) Large groups of Christians were being led into "pseudo-Christian" cult-type groups, which were actually just a front for pagan philosophy and religion. (Such as the cult of Mithras which I think was practiced around the time after Jesus died.)
In response, bishops repeated that, if a person were to be aware of the meaning of Christ and then freely deny him or reject him, they had essentially turned away from God and the salvation he offers.
As Christians, we believe that we are saved only through Jesus. As St. Peter reminds his audience in Acts 4:12: "There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among mortals by which we must be saved." In most cases, this means that we believe baptism in water, in the name of the Trinity, is the fundamental requirement for salvation.
However, even from the beginning, the great Christian writer and teacher St. Augustine said that the salvation imparted through baptism can also be imparted through other means: specifically, through the "baptism of blood" (a non-Christian who dies defending Christian beliefs or holy places) and "the baptism of desire" (a non-Christian who has expressed a firm desire to become a Christian, and who shows all the signs of living a Christian life, but who dies before baptism). In both of those cases, the Church has always recognized that the Holy Spirit leads people to God in ways which we cannot always explain or document.
God is able to save anyone he chooses. We trust that he often does this is ways that are not obvious to us, within the hearts of individuals who are sincerely seeking the truth. Otherwise, it would imply that all of humanity was excluded from salvation before Christ came, and that much of humanity (which has not had the opportunity to hear the Christian message until recently) was doomed to be eternally separated from God. This would imply a very cruel and elitist God. Our belief as Christians and Catholics is that God desires the salvation of all people … even those who are not Christian. How he achieves that, however, is a mystery. But we know that our God is a loving God who would not allow people to suffer on account of an ignorance that they were not responsible for.
The Church teaches that baptism, faith, and a life lived in Christ are necessary for salvation. However, Vatican II also taught that, within every human heart, God places the law of conscience. Everybody has a deep sense of right and wrong which ultimately comes from God, and which will lead people to God if they attempt to follow their conscience faithfully. Because Jesus is God, those who move in the direction of God (even non-Christians) are ultimately moving in the direction of Jesus. And if they are moving in the direction of Jesus and His truth, ultimately they are expressing a desire for the salvation that God gives. The Church teaches that, while it is certainly easier to receive salvation as a Christian, it is not impossible to receive salvation in other religions.
This is a challenging situation: on one hand, we must be respectful of the good things to be found in other faiths, and encourage people to live their faiths with sincerity and love.
On the other hand, this does not mean that all religions are the same. We believe that Christ is the ultimate revealing of God to the world, and that the more we know about his message, the greater the chance that we will accept his offer and be saved. We must therefore continue to preach the message of the Gospel, and encourage interested non-Catholics to examine the claims of our faith, without in any way coercing or intimidating them.
Father Feeney was an American priest who, back in the 1940s, taught that if a person was not a Roman Catholic, they were condemned to hell. This has never been the accepted teaching of Catholicism, and Father Feeney was reprimanded by the Vatican for his mistaken understanding.
Nevertheless, there are groups which continue to hold to this strict interpretation, even after the Pope and bishops have specifically rejected it.
The phrase "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" teaches us that salvation is only through Christ, the Way, the Truth and the Life. But God is able to save whomever he pleases, whether they are baptized in the Roman Catholic Church or not.
It is important to remember that "the Church" in this phrase does not refer exclusively to the Roman Catholic Church. Salvation is a great gift, and God is a loving Father who wants all of his children to receive it. How he works this out, however, we will only understand in heaven. That is why, whenever we quote "Outside the Church, there is no salvation", we should also remember that "God is in no way bound by the sacraments."
Until then, we continue to proclaim Jesus as Lord (evangelization) and engage in respectful dialogue with followers of other religions, to discover the truths that God had revealed to them to guide them toward salvation, and to share with them the truth as we have discovered it in Christ.
Lord, have mercy!
And just what Bible are you reading from? The only "church" that matters is the church that is the Body of Christ (the truly regenerate believers).
There is no wiggle room in this.
Absolutely anathema.
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for all have sinned."
Romans 5:12
Absolutely wrong. Were either you or I present in the Garden of Eden? Did either one of us partake of the forbidden fruit? Of course not. But why are we under the punishment of what Adam did?
We are all guilty of evil. Each and everyone of us. Psalms 51:5 tells us, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Thus, we are guilty and condemned from the womb, without the knowledge of right and wrong.
And, while it is true that we deserve justice, it is better for us not to receive justice. Calling for justice and justice alone places all of humanity into hell.
First, it is not I that agrees or refutes you ... I quoted the Bible, the Word of God.
Second, the language in the KJV is precise English and, does, in fact refute your statement.
Interesting how you tell us that by virtue of baptism we are joined.... The word baptizo, where we get the word Baptism, from the greek means "to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet);". My wife is a former Catholic and we attended Catholic services for quite a while. We never saw any baptism that involved anything other than a little water over the head.... No submerging or making anyone fully wet....
Our Church discribes baptism as an outward symbol of our accepting Christ as our savior, just as a wedding ring shows I am married to my wife. If I didn't have a wedding ring, I would still be married to my wife (of course if I didn't wear my ring, my wife may have a few choice words about it, but she wouldn't divorce me either).
Matthew 28:19 informs us that we should be baptized, but baptism itself does not bring salvation. Accepting Christ does this, and only through Christ will we find salvation. One who choses to not be baptised may find themselves in a bit of hot water when facing Christ, but failing to be baptised will not prevent their salvation.
I have a friend who just recently accepted Christ as her savior. Other than a few Christmas services, she has not been a regular attendee at any church. She is now looking for a churhc to join. Of course she has been invited to mine, but other friends have also invited her to visit their church. She plans to be baptised, but should she die before she should join a church and be baptised, I doubt that she will get the "Go to Hell" card simply because she was not baptised.
WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!, and you would be surprised how many times I have heard that from Catholics (then again, maybe not). The truth of the matter is this: True, the Catholic Bible and pretty much all new translations that you can buy in the store come from either the Vatican scripts (which believe it or not do not include Revelation...Don't believe me, ask the Vatican) or the Alexandrian scripts, of which there are just a few old copies remaining.
The King James Bible (and perhaps a handful of other translations) are translated from the Antioch scripts, of which there are over 5000 scripts from various times. They agree with eatch other over 99% of the time (the Vatican and Alexandrian disagree with each other and even among themselves up to 40% of the time).
Of course you have just my word on this. I have been doing a lot of study on this. There are many books on this topic, and a simple websearch can find this same information for you (I have a simple page that tells about this at http://bard.lunarpages.com/Religion/b3.html. My info there is a still being updated, but I have links there that will take you to some other sources for this).
Therefore, don't make the wrong assumption that it was the Roman Catholic Church that brought us the Bible. Also, Emperor Diocletion (30 some odd years before Constantine) ordered all manuscripts in Rome distroyed... these were copies from ANTIOCH. Constantine, when he made Christianity an official Roman Religion, ordered copies from Alexandria brought to Rome, which is what the Vatican still has. Which Bible do you trust.... The Alexandrian scripts, from Egypt....home of Set, Horus, and company, or the Antioch scripts, which is the essential area where the gospel began to spread?
Arrigato (sp) Jeff san.
I am confident that the verse you quoted me does indicate clearly that all men have sinned, even that all men will die, but I do not see the refutation of the statement "no one will be condemned for something they (he) did not do" in there. IF we have all sinned, then why should God condemn us for things we did NOT do? Rather, surely he will condemn us each for OUR OWN sins, for we all fall short of the glory of God, "there is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins" Ecc. 7:15. I thought you were concurring with my statement, but supporting it strangely.
I hope you will forgive my use of the NIV, it is the only English translation I have here (the Reina-Valera and Czar Alexander III versions I have are in Spanish and Russian respectively).
Rather when we know that "there is no difference, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.(Rom. 3:23)" If all have sinned, it is by that SIN we will be condemned, and judged--why should we believe that we would be condemned for others' (Adam's or our fathers') sins when we all have our own?
Explain then, how can this be?
Is what he said was, that people in the catholic church will experience a fuller salvation.
No pope has ever said this.
He may not teach it, but catholic schools teach it to little children. Don't say they don't either, I went to 12 years of catholic school.
The crux of the teaching is that there is no salvation outside the Church. In other words, everyone who IS saved was joined to the Catholic church in some way whether they understand that they were or not. Any kind of truth they have that the church also holds puts them in communion with the Church, even though it is an imperfect communion.
If this isn't the height of arrogance then I don't understand the meaning of the word.
Becky
Refer to post #238, and take my word for it, you will never figure out exactly what the catholic church teaches because they don't teach anything exactly
Becky
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