Oil from Coal....Boon, Bane, or Boondoggle? (posted 12/31/2001)

various links | 12-31-01 | backhoe

[backhoe]

On the way to "looking up other things" I ran across an old subject- converting coal & other solid-fuel products to liquid or gaseous fuel.

Pioneered by Nazi Germany during WWII, it was also used in South Africa during sanctions against that country.

America has some of the world's largest coal reserves, so the question becomes, "is it a viable alternative to petroleum products which we now import from hostile lands?"

An MBendi Profile: South Africa - History of the Chemical ...
... started producing oil from coal in 1955 its origins can be traced back to 1895 when
coal was first mined on both sides of the Vaal River near Vereeniging. The ...

Coal and Wastes as Oil Alternative Energy and Chemicals
... New thermal degradation methods for producing oil from coal and
biomass using novel dispersed catalysts were presented. ...

Coal Virtual Library
... coke, aggregates, industrial sands and ores. [Published by: KMAC, USA] dot Oil-from-coal
Process The Sasol process starts in the gasification plant where coal ...

Millennium Debate Links Section
... Oil From Coal Process The Sasol process, how coal can be
converted to Crude Gas in the right environment..... ...

Oil Industry Resources
... the expense of fuel oil which is primarily used for bunkering. Oil from coal synfuels
plants owned by Sasol provide a significant proportion of South Africa’s ...

Painting the Town -- Museum of the City of New York
... by the World War II -era development of a process for extracting oil from coal and
the emergence of diesel-fueled ships' engines. Today, the Franklin Delano ...

CHAPTER FOUR: Standard Oil Fuels World War II
... It was announced by Teagle that joint research work on production of oil from coal
had been carried on for some time and that a research laboratory for this ...

Running On Empty
... Fleay's economic heresy extends to questioning whether oil from
coal and other sources will ever come to the rescue. ...
www.swenson.com/ron/961024b.htm - 9k - Cached - Similar pages

PDF] Enhanced Oil Recovery Potential in the United States
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... to produce synthetic oil from coal, enhanced recovery ... In Place... . .
23 Petroleum Reservoirs ...

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In reviewing this, note the references to early efforts- South Africa circa 1890, New York City in WWII, and the inter-war years activity of Standard Oil.

[Rodney King]

It is all a matter of price. I believe (off the top of my head) that the Nazi's produced oil at the equivalent rate of $100 per barrel. As I understand it, the cost now would be roughly $65 per barrel. Basically, if the cost comes way down, or the price of oil goes way up, then it will be worthwhile and private industry will produce oil from coal on their own without the need for the government to get involved.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

The big coal reserves are in Wyoming with a moisture content of 35 percent. There is one facility in place that processes the moisture out (and thereby reduces freight costs)moving the BTU value from 8300 to 11,000 per pound. The coal is still coal, tho. The US still has vast quantities of oil shale which might be easier to process into hydrocarbons.

[robnoel]

One of Americas problems...sanctions will never be imposed on it and Americans will never appricate the vast natural wealth and resources it has

Having lived on the other side of sanctions first in Rhodesia then South Africa when various products we were dependent on were no longer available we found alternative solutions...granted the cost on somethings increased but it also spurred economic growth were there had been none....

No question in my mind that America could self support its energy needs for the next hundred years...but the enviro nazis will make sure this never happens and politicians will remain to weak to challenge them!

[philosofy123]

We should use our military force in Saudi Arabia to take over that country. Assign a new moderate leadership. This would prevent the usage of the billions of dollars of petrole revenues to fund terrorists.

Once we finished with Saudi Arabia, we need to invade Iran, and install a moderate leadership. Outlaw any political Islamic parties.

[Alberta's Child]

Absolutely correct. Even if the U.S. had all the oil reserves it needs for the next ten million years, it would still import oil from the Middle East if it is cheaper that way.

It was known for years that the tar sands of northern Alberta contained vast oil reserves that probably exceed Saudi Arabia's, but nobody bothered to get it until Suncor developed a relatively inexpensive extraction method back in the 1980s.

[meenie]

Price is the controlling factor. We spend far more in military expenditures than if we spent the same amount for extracting oil from coal or shale. We could easily furnish our own energy converting to nuclear and hydro for power generation and using our present domestic oil supply for cars and trucks.

[glockmeister40]

I think we could get the costs down a lot less, given the state of current refining technology, compared with WWII Germany.

I think it's good that we exhaust the middle east supply first, then that will leave us a world leader in energy production. It would be great to sell oil to the saudis for $100 a barrel.

[bluetoad]

Price is the controlling factor.

Political Will - is the controlling factor. And right now the Petro Dollars appears to be globally useful.

Price can always be brought down with technological advances and volume of scale.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

Assuming Desert Storm and related expenditures were all about oil, the cost of a gallon of gasoline would be closer to $10 than about $1.

[VMI70]

I read an article here, about a month or two ago, about tar sands in Canada. Apparently there are vast areas of this that are untapped. I visualize tar sands as being on the surface, like on a beach, but I could be mistaken. I know nothing about the technical aspects of refining this resource, but it appears that the mining and shipping part of the equation would be fairly straight-forward.

FReegards,

[Gordian Blade]

I'll second (or third) the opinion that price is the controlling factor. When I was a young man just out on my own, gasoline was about 25c a gallon in some places. Our cars weren't as fuel efficient as the cars today, but not as bad as some would have you believe. My 305 cubic inch V8 Mustang got about 25 miles to the gallon at 75 MPH, which isn't bad. Now going forward through hyper-inflation to today, we see gasoline around $1.00 per gallon in some places. Adjusting for inflation, it's cheaper now than 30 years ago. I heard a lecture from an MIT professor in the early 70's that claimed we'd be about out of oil by now and gasoline would be over $10 a gallon if you could find it! But it's nice to know that alternatives like ethanol (pure or additive) and oil from coal can serve as a saftey net if the price of oil should get very high, like over $50 a barrel.

That said, we definitely need a more rational nuclear power program in the country. We shouldn't be using hydrocarbons for generating bulk electricity, since they are much better used as easily transported and stored forms of energy for smaller requirements like vehicles and stand-by power generation. And there's some hope that perhaps in another 30 years, controlled fusion power plants will be practical.

[backhoe]

Thanks for looking.... I *was* wondering about the cost of this. I recall a post here around a month or so ago where the Canadians were claiming to have gotten oil-shale extraction costs down to the $12 a barrel range, whereas it had been around $35+ a barrel.

[backhoe]

That said, we definitely need a more rational nuclear power program in the country. We shouldn't be using hydrocarbons for generating bulk electricity

You'll get no argument from me!

I remember 27 cent gasoline, and Sunoco 260 all too well.....

[stylin_geek]

I remember seeing an article in the late 70's about a plant that could be grown that either produced or could be processed in to a latex like substance from which petroleum products could be made.

If I remember correctly, the cost of refinement (1970 dollars) was around $35 per barrel. This was reported in Popular Science, I believe.

The article also mentioned the ideal climate for this plant was arid with a lot of sun.

[backhoe]

Hello, Robby.... yes, it's all a matter of political will and courage. I live on the Atlantic seaboard, and I know there's gas & oil offshore- we just need to go get the stuff! And there are plenty of energy reserves on the continent, too... coal, oil, and natural gas, there for the taking.

[eno_]

True. It basically means oil can, at worst, triple in price before alternative feedstocks and sources kick in. And if oil shale mining grew to where there were economies of scale, the minimum support price would probably fall to about $40/bbl. But with oil production being cut to try to get to $25/bbl, oil shale will only happen if there is some production cost breakthrough.

Which all goes to show that we will probably be burning oil for 300 more years, at least.

[Rodney King]

I don't recall that specific post, but Canada is full of fraudulent companies that have falsely claimed such techonology. Solv-Ex was one of them.

[Gordian Blade]

Where does the $10 per gallon number come from? I'd like to see the calculation; I doubt the number. Just for the sake of argument, we'll assume that the only benefit of Desert Storm was securing "the free flow of oil at market prices," as Rush says. Don't forget that the world economic powers chipped in for the cost of Desert Storm, so that the cost is spread over the entire world's consumption of oil. Also, the cost needs to be amortized over the approximately 10 years of stability it bought us. To be fair, you can add in the continuing cost of the no-fly zone and troop presence in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.

[backhoe]

Well, rats! Couldn't find the story or the link.... the price sticks in my mind, but you may have a point about fraudulent claims- it wouldn't be the first time!