Posted on 12/29/2001 1:02:06 PM PST by AndrewSshi
A planet of playthings, You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice. --Rush, “Freewill,” ©1980.
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance.
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
“The stars aren’t aligned-
Or the gods are malign”
Blame is better to give than receive.
…
All preordained-
A prisoner in chains-
A victim of venomous fate.
Kicked in the face,
You can't pray for a place
In Heaven's unearthly estate.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear-
I will choose Free Will.
When Martin Luther defied a Pope and proclaimed salvation only through the ineffable grace of God, he had no idea that he was rending the body of the ancient church that had for so long known only unity. As his revolution spread, though, all Christendom watched as the Church began to fracture like one of the rose windows smashed by a maddened Swiss mob. Northern Germany, Scandinavia, and a large portion of the Swiss cantons turned away from the faith they had known for centuries, causing no small consternation in a civilization that valued timeless truths above novelty, and which viewed the past as the repository of truth and the present and future as decay. When the reformers were accused by men like Cardinal Sadoleto of pulling away from their faith for the sake of unprecedented novelties, both Luther and Calvin responded that it was their medieval forbears who had introduced devilish novelties into the Church, and that they were merely restoring Christianity to its ancient form (“Reply,” 56).
Such claims and counter claims were absolutely vital in the spirit of those times. For if Christ had indeed left His authority with a body of believers upon his ascension, then any faction claiming to possess the true meaning of His scriptures would logically have to be in agreement with that original body that carried on Christ’s truth after His return to His Father. It is outside of the purview of the discipline of history to ask questions about the existence and nature of God or the supernatural claims of any institution. We can, however, examine the claims of historical continuity by the various parties involved: Were Doctors Luther and Calvin reclaiming an ancient theology obscured by centuries of scholastic decadence, or were they, as their opponents claimed, introducing novelties never before seen under the sun? I intend, through an examination of patristic sources in comparison to Luther and Calvin, to demonstrate that the reformers reclaimed certain Augustinian principles, but in carrying them to their logical extremes, went to lengths that were utterly without precedent.
In examining the Reformation and its dogmas, we must first understand the key fulcrum upon which the reformation turned. This point, though, is often obscured when navigating through a list of secondary issues like use of images, liturgical style, church property, etc. We would do well to note that all of these issues pale besides that which drove the reformers to the lengths they went—“Therefore it is clear that, as the soul needs only the Word of God for its life and righteousness, so it is justified by faith alone and not any works; for if it could be justified by anything else, it would not need the Word, and consequently it would not need faith.” The reformation stands or falls on the basis of the assertion that man is justified before God only through His ineffable grace, by faith alone.
At the outset, this should not seem like too much of a problem. Even the most adamant pre-Vatican II Catholic will acknowledge the corrupt nature of man and inability to approach the righteousness of Christ without divine grace. Why then, did the reformers’ preaching of grace cause such a stir? If we delve below the surface, the problem with sola fide soon becomes apparent. If salvation comes by grace through faith alone, then no works of man can have anything do to with his salvation. If that is the case, then, as Luther tells us, this discounts any act of the will, for if one were to be able to will oneself to believe, faith would simply be a meritorious work (Luther, 135). Calvin reaches a similar conclusion in his Institutes (XXI, 1), and such thinking leaves us with the uncomfortable notion that, if one is to be saved by faith alone, then man, shorn of his free will, is reduced to the role of a puppet dancing on God’s strings. This of course opens up a host of other difficulties, and the perplexed believer is left asking if God in His love also responsible for evil. In the end, the Roman Catholic Church rejected reformed dogma in order to defend the doctrine of man’s freedom (Tracy, 101).
This rejection then left the reformers in the position of standing against the ancient Catholic Church and demanding that they, rather than the ancient church, possessed apostolic truth. Erasmus of Rotterdam had this to say about Luther’s claim to have re-discovered the truth:
Even though Christ’s spirit might permit His people to be in error in an unimportant question on which man’s salvation does not depend, no one would believe that this Spirit has deliberately overlooked error in His church for 1300 years, and that He did not deem one of all the pious and saintly Church Fathers worthy to be inspired, with what, they contend, is the very essence of all evangelical teaching (Erasmus, 19).Erasmus lays a fairly serious charge at Luther’s feet. The answer, then to the question of whether or not the reformers held views in concord with the ancient church lies in ascertaining Erasmus’s assertion that the denial of free will is completely alien to the historical record of the Church’s teachings.
Since Erasmus felt it meet to bring the Church Fathers into the discussion, I shall begin my examination with patristic sources. I intend first to examine the works of Justin Martyr, a second century convert and one of the first Christian apologists. I intend to examine Justin’s work as a case study for several reasons, chief of which are that his first and second apologies were written both to answer objections to the Christian faith and outline its basic principles, and, if we are looking for a picture of early Christianity as handed down to the apostles, we could do no better than to examine the product of a Church removed from the death of the last apostle by less than a century.
To properly comprehend the early Church’s positions on the freedom of the will, we must first examine the philosophical background of the classical world from which Christianity emerged. We quickly find that, as a general rule, the classical world was hostile to the notion of humanity possessing the free ability to choose. Democritus with his mechanistic view of the cosmos and the Eleatics with their monism both held that all events and choices were under the sway of a deterministic necessity (“Free Will”). Aristotle was a bit more optimistic, allowing for contingency, but then, with his cosmos brought into being by a primum mobile, it is hard to escape the notion that all subsequent causes must be dependent of the first cause (ibid). Nor did the stoics allow for free choice, which was precluded by their pantheistic picture of the universe (ibid). It was against such background that Christianity addressed the issue of man’s freedom.
In Chapters XLIII and XLIV of his Second Apology, Justin examines the question as to whether or not men are free. His conclusion is an unambiguous rejection of the classical world’s determinism. Martyr makes several arguments, one based on a usage of the term “devour” in Isaiah, and another on the dubious notion that Plato learned what he knew from the Hebrew prophets (Martyr, XLIV). We shall pass over these, though, in favor of the much more powerful argument of responsibility. He tells his reader “unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions” (Martyr, XLIII). Justin hammers this point home further in stating that God made man, “not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice” (ibid). For Martyr, the sinner would not be worthy of punishment if his action were not of his own volition, but a result of the condition in which he was made (ibid). He then quotes Deuteronomy 30:15, 19: “Behold before thy face are good and evil: choose the good” (1.2.5).
Augustine in his answer affirmed that man does evil through the use of his free choice (Free Choice, 1.16.35), and that evil comes not from God, but rather from a negation of His goodness, that is, in a man turning from the good that which is God to follow his own desires (ibid, 2.20.54). In agreement with Justin Martyr, he asks rhetorically, “How could a man be punished justly, if he used his will for the very purpose for which it was given” (ibid, 2.1.3)? He goes on to state that to be justly punished, sin must be committed by a free act of the will (ibid).
In this context, when Augustine speaks of the decrees of God, he speaks of God’s predestination as coming through the foreknowledge of His omniscience. Indeed, he goes out of his way to state that foreknowledge is not the same as compulsion (Free Choice, 3.4.10), and states that, simply because God has foreseen an evil does not mean that He is responsible (ibid, 3.4.11). He draws the notion of foreknowledge to its logical conclusion, stating that because God foreknows everything, then events must happen as He has foreseen (ibid, 3.3.8). This appears to satisfactorily wrap up the issue of God’s decrees.
All of the above would seem to create the impression that God’s only action in working out His will is in foreseeing that which will occur and thus working out His will through man’s will. But we must carefully bear in mind that Augustine is speaking of the origins of evil. We have not yet examined what Augustine taught from scripture concerning, not man’s reprobation, but his salvation. When we look to this issue, the picture of Augustine becomes much murkier.
Augustine notes that the first man fell through his own completely free choice. Adam, in Augustine’s thinking, was completely free to choose either good or evil, and opted for evil (Free Choice, 3.24.73). From this point, humanity was enslaved to original sin. The original sin came through free will, but subsequently, though still free, the will was subject to corruption, and thus, unable to rise to salvation. This can be summed up in the statement, “But, though man fell through his own will, he cannot rise through his own will” (ibid, 2.20.54).
At this point in his career, Augustine might have been willing to acknowledge that man can freely look for the grace of God in order to assist him in doing good, stating that man, though subject to concupiscence, nonetheless has the knowledge of God, by whose grace he might rise to a higher state (ibid, 3.19.53). If we were to cease our examination of Augustine here, we would find a ready partisan of Rome, affirming man’s free choice, predestination through foreknowledge, and the ability of man to choose God. Alas, the picture is not that simple.
For at the turn of the fifth century, the notorious heretic Pelagius preached that man in and of himself had the ability to be perfect, and that the fall of Adam, rather than plunging the whole of the human race into sin, served merely as a bad example (Nature and Grace, 9.10). To the dismay of the good Doctor, Pelagius and his followers sought to bolster support for their beliefs with Augustine’s very own writings on free will (Retractions, 1.9.3). Augustine’s response to this heretic’s teachings generated his later writings on the will, predestination, and divine grace.
It must be noted that Augustine’s later writings on original sin and predestination seems to show a markedly different posture from his earlier work on free will. While it has been argued that this hardened stance was due either to his reaction to the fall of Rome or the Pelagian heresy, it is more likely that his own views were gradually evolving under the influence of St. Paul, independent of external circumstances. I base my judgment on Augustine’s quotation of his Retractions in On the Predestination of the Saints:
I indeed labored in defense of the free choice of the human will, but the grace of God conquered, and only thus was I able to arrive at the point where I understood that the Apostle spoke with the clearest truth, “For who singles you out? Or what do you have that you have not received? And if you have received it, why do you glory as if you had not received it” (1 Corinthians 4:7, qtd. in Predestination, 4.8)?The above taken into account, the later Augustine still believes that those who choose faith in Christ do so of their own free will, but with the important caveat that God has prepared the will of the elect to choose Him (Predestination, 6.11). Under these teachings of Augustine, free will alone is insufficient to believe in Christ, and indeed, if free will is enough for the believer to be saved, then “Christ has died in vain” (Nature and Grace, 40.47). The will of man is both corrupt and inadequate to seek salvation. The elect are not called because they believe, but so that they may believe (Predestination, 17.34). We see Augustine at his most Protestant when he further recounts his own changing views in stating “I said most truly: ‘For just as in those “whom God has chosen,” not works initiate merit, but faith…’ [Emphasis added.] But that merit of faith is also a gift of God…” (Predestination, 3.7) Here, then, the Catholic, to his dismay, sees what seems to be protestant doctrine issuing from the pen of the arch-Catholic.
We will be going too far, though, if we make Augustine a five point Calvinist. We must note that, for starters, when he issued a retraction concerning his first writings on the nature of evil, he stated that free will was inadequate for man to rise to God. He never, though, changed his statement that evil comes only from the free exercise of the will, and never denies that in choosing to do evil, Adam was under no compulsion. When he mentions predestination, he is quite clear that only by God’s predestination can man come to an efficacious and saving faith, but what is striking is that predestination is only mentioned regarding salvation. Those that are condemned do so merely because they follow their own corrupt will, and God justly punishes their evil deeds. Augustine takes his stand for grace and salvation through election, while at the same time avoiding the horror of double predestination.
For the next several centuries, the Church would follow this Augustinian path. The Church rejected the teachings of Pelagius, and a hundred years later at the Council of Orange, issued a series of canons affirming the Augustinian position on grace and predestination. Canon 4 states that if anyone contends that God’s cleansing of man from sin is contingent upon the will then he is in error; Canon 5 states that the beginning of faith itself comes from the grace of God rather than the will of man; Canon 6 states that grace does not depend on the cooperation of man (“Canons of Orange”). As the Church moved on through the centuries, she attempted to carry on in the steps of the African Doctor in straddling the fence between grace and free will. By the beginning of the High Middle Ages, though, the Church was pulling back towards a system that acknowledged the primacy of the human will. By the turn of the twelfth century, St. Anselm of Canterbury wrote in his De Concordia that free choice co-exists with divine grace and cooperates with it (Anselm, 453). With such pronouncements, The Church had arrived at a position specifically condemned by St. Augustine (cf. Letter 225). We shall now examine how well Luther and Calvin succeeded in their attempts to return to his teachings.
Luther would be in perfect concord with Augustine in his affirmation of salvation by grace through faith. In The Bondage of the Will, though, he arrives at Augustine, but then passes him completely, arriving in territory where none have trodden before. Augustine stated that man’s fall came through his choice, and the resulting corruption of human nature resulted in a will that commits sin of its own volition. Luther does the good doctor one better, though, and asserts that the wicked man sins “under the impulse of divine power” (Luther, 130). Luther even challenges Augustine in his definition of free will, stating that, if in a fallen state the will is unable to seek God, then it is not in fact free (ibid, 113), and that Augustine and others who have called such a will free are degrading the very word (ibid, 120). Luther goes to the extreme end of the spectrum, and then beyond the pale, but recognizes and embraces this: “Therefore, we must go to extremes, deny free will altogether, and ascribe everything to God” (ibid, 133)!
Indeed, his statement that a will unable to do good is in fact under compulsion makes fine logical sense, but the end result is a man with no freedom, and one whose evil must be the responsibility of divine omnipotence. Luther here returns to the Augustinian notion that in His omnipotence God allows but does not cause the workings of evil in order to further His divine plan (ibid, 130). It almost seems here that Luther is pulling back from the brink of a precipice to which he has been running headlong, staring into an abyss to which he dare not attempt to apply his own feeble reason. And indeed, though throughout this debate on free will with Erasmus Luther employs the techniques of reason and dialectic, in the end he felt that any attempt to use reason to fathom the mind of God was a fairly silly exercise (ibid, 129). As the reformation continued, though, another figure would arrive who would see no problem in attempting to apply human reason to the workings of the Eternal God, taking every statement on grace, sin, and God’s decrees to their horrifying ends, leaping joyfully into the abyss from which Luther held back. That man was Jean Calvin.
Even the extreme bombast of Luther’s Bondage of the Will does not take the horrific final step in the picture it paints of God’s omnipotence. Like Augustine, Luther admits that since the fall, man has been a slave to sin, but Calvin finally dares to examine from whence came the fall. His conclusion, unlike Augustine’s, is that God actively caused the fall of Adam and the whole human race into sin and damnation as part of His “wonderful plan” (Institutes, XXIII, 7). The ruthless Frenchman then goes on to state that God is nonetheless just in punishing the reprobate (ibid, XXIII, 4). Though this horribly contradicts both Augustine and Justin Martyr’s writings of responsibility, Calvin barely hesitates when he states that he is leaving behind the bulk of the Church’s traditions in favor of his alleged ruthless adherence to scripture (ibid, XXII, 1). Calvin has no problem in that asserting that, since salvation is not by works, then neither is damnation (ibid, XXII, 11), and that the reason for the eternal torment of the vast majority of the human race lies, not in their guilt, but in the arbitrary choice of God.
This horror, then, is the end result of the reformation: God has arbitrarily predestined some to eternal life, and has likewise predestined others to eternal damnation. Calvin then states that certain people might object to this, stating that it makes God a cruel tyrant, to which he responds that since God is both omnipotent and the creator of everything, then all that He decrees, ipso facto, is righteous, good, and just (Institutes, XXIII, 2). He then has the chutzpah to go on and tell the reader that his dogma is not one of absolute might, since God is “free from fault,” and the quintessence of Law and Right (ibid).
Jean Calvin then, has started from Augustine, who among the Church Fathers was most friendly to predestination, and taken the teachings of predestination to their logical extreme, crafting a dogma that would have caused St. Augustine to blanch in horror. Did St. Augustine believe in divine election and predestination of believers? Most assuredly. It was up to Jean Calvin, though, to add double predestination and eliminate Augustine’s free will theodicy in favor of a God who has decreed evil and suffering for his own amusement.
I submit, though, that such questions concerning free will and predestination would inevitably have come to the fore and been the cause of controversy even without Luther and Calvin. The reason for this is that Augustine loomed large over the western Church down through the centuries, and at times there seem to be two Augustines. Why is this the case? The reason that there seem to be two St. Augustines lies in the Bible itself, since there seem to be two St. Pauls*. We have the Paul who tells the believer in Romans Chapter 9 that God prepares some men for eternal life and some for damnation, answering the obvious objection to this with a “Who are you, O man, to talk back to God” (Romans 9:20)? On the other hand, we are also told that there is a loving God who “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth” (1 Timothy 2:4). Such contradictions in the Christian faith, then, were present at its inception.
Indeed, such difficulties are inevitable in any faith that attempts to posit a God who is all-powerful, all knowing, and all good. Paul, who likely never intended to be considered a basis for systematic theology, is all over the map when it comes to how to resolve such questions. As such, there is no pat resolution to these seeming contradictions. Perhaps the error of the church was to seek one; Luther is at his best not when he is glorying in the slavery of man, but when he is proclaiming the mercy of Christ.
---. The Problem of Free Choice. Trans. Dom Mark Pontifex. New York: Newman Press, 1955.
The Problem of Free Choice. Appendix. Excerpt from Retractions.
Calvin, Jean. Excerpts from Institutes of the Christian Religion. The Protestant Reformation. Ed. Hans J. Hillerbrand. New York: Harper Torchbooks, 1968. 178-221.
---. “Reply to Sadoleto.” A Reformation Debate. Ed. John C. Olin. New York, Fordham University Press, 2000. 43-88.
"The Canons of the Council of Orange.” 529 A.D. Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics.
“Free Will.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Michael Maher. 1909. Transcribed 1999.
Martyr, Justin, Saint. “The Second Apology.” The Ante-Nicene Fathers. Eds. Alexander Roberts, D.D., and James Donaldson, LL.D. New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1899. 188-194.
Erasmus of Rotterdam. Excerpts from The Free Will. Winter 3-94.
Luther, Martin. Excerpts from The Bondage of the Will. Winter 98-138.
The question remains ftD..why do two people hear the same gospel and one hear and respond to it and one refuse to hear it? There has to be a cause for that.
We would agree anyone that would choose hell, and the lakes fire with intention is "crazy". Who would one make a conscious choice to burn for ever?
So there must be something else going on here...
I think you believe in God's forknowlege..and election based on that foreknowledge ...I fail to see a meaningful difference in the end result..infact I think the the "foreknowledge" position also shows God's sovereignty in election. If He fore knows who will accept and fails to intervene directly to bring the others he has ,by His lack of direct action, predestined them to hell. We are simply looking at a difference in time not effect.
God can choose to act as He will..or not act as He will.
I wonder if asked yet one more time about his position on Ephesians 2:1-8 if forthedeclaration would still maintain that faith is his own.
Exceptionally kind words; now you just hafta convince my mortgage broker and my utility bill-collector that "banking is unimportant", and I'll be good to go. ;-)
Yes, there is a cause for that, man's WILL
We would agree anyone that would choose hell, and the lakes fire with intention is "crazy". Who would one make a conscious choice to burn for ever?
They do not believe they will! Prisons are full of people who never believed they would get caught. And when you let them out, they go out and do it again! Man can convince himself of many things and avoid reality.
So there must be something else going on here...
Nothing else is 'going on' except man is rejecting the free gift of God, preferring to think he can live without God. When Eve sinned she questioned that God was giving her the best. Mankind, through Satanic influence does the same. But to show how strong this negative aspect of man is, even after 1,000 years of perfect enviroment, man will revolt against Christ himself. Now, that is scripture and that is a fact. Just as Satan did, just as Adam and Eve did, so will millions of people who have Jesus Christ ruling them 'they will not have that man over them'
I think you believe in God's forknowlege..and election based on that foreknowledge ...I fail to see a meaningful difference in the end result..infact I think the the "foreknowledge" position also shows God's sovereignty in election. If He fore knows who will accept and fails to intervene directly to bring the others he has ,by His lack of direct action, predestined them to hell. We are simply looking at a difference in time not effect.
The 'foreknowledge' position is 'conditional' election. It simply states that God always knew who if given the Gospel would accept and who would not. Those who He saw would were then 'Predestinated'.
The issue always go back to the 'will', does man have one or not (discounting the razzle dazzle nonsense of Luther and Calvin-man is free-to sin)
God can choose to act as He will..or not act as He will.
God chose to give His rational creatures the ability to choose to love Him or not. That was what God wanted. Now, Augustine and Calvin start with what man sees, salvation, so they start with man (total depravity). The Plan does not start with man or end with man. It starts with God desiring to share His Love with rational creatures. He gets pleasure in those creatures freely responding. How do I know that? He did not have to allow any of this to happen! He could have 'elected' everyone, not had a Fall and made everyone love Him. We would never know any different. He would have known and it would not have pleased Him.
Calvinism is a man-centered system, seeing things from man's view not God's. God wants something from His creatures, their free love returned to Him, not a bunch of smiling robots.
Even so, come Lord Jesus
Yes, the faith does come from the individual.
For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not yourselves it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man boast.(Eph.2:8)
The 'it' is referring to the 'grace' not to the faith. The grace is the Plan of God that provided salvation (for by grace are ye saved (vs 5)
What that passage shows however,is that regeneration does not precede faith, since one is saved though faith (Jn.16:9). In the Calvinist system 'faith' comes after salvation (regeneration)
Moreover, faith is not a work (Rom.4:4-5) so making faith a requirement for salvation still keeps out works, since salvation is a free gift that one receives by faith(Jn.1:12,Rom3:28)
By the way, if you want to know what I would say, ask me. You do not have to wonder what I will say, I will tell you. Ofcourse, I might come back and ask you to explain 1Tim 2:4, 4:10, 1Jn 2:2, JN.3:16, Rom.10:13, 1Pet.3:9. well, you get the point.
By the way, even Calvin knew better then to use Eph.2 as a defense of his system.
Even so, come Lord Jesus
Same old Calvinist smearing. Hey, Woody do you even know what Pelaginism is? Could you explain his view on original sin and Arminius's?. How many people did Pelagius and Arminius have burned at the stake because they disagreed with their 'orthodox' theology?
Even so, come Lord Jesus
On the one hand, we could argue that Woody over-states his case in calling ftD "Pelagian", seeing as ftD's soteriology probably is the lesser Semi-Pelagian/Arminian error, not full-blown Pelagianism per se (near as I can tell). BUT, on the other hand, ftD's theology is downright Socinian -- which is an even greater error than Pelagianism!! (Well, his Triadology might be trinitarian, sure, but his theology is still essentially Socinian)I see you are having a lot of fun dissecting ftD's views and labeling them one sort of heresy or another. I would here observe that ftD, like the other non-Calvinists, is too polite to return the accusation, which is greatly to his and their credit. No accusations of "that gross error of full-blown Calvinist heresy". No assessment of any of the various flavors of "Calvinist heresy" -- 4-point, 5-point, single/double predestination, supra/infralapsarianism, as any more of a fatal error than any other. This despite the extremes to which Calvin went in his interpretations of the Bible.
These heresy labels are just another way to accuse, and constant accusation does not leave a good impression upon the reader. It leaves the impression that Calvin's interpretations are so extreme they must be forced down the throat, so to speak (difficult as speaking is at such a time). Spurgeon, it seems to me, has a much different approach.
For many of today's Arminians, their arminianism is not their biggest problem... it is merely a soteriological symptom of a far more serious spiritual cancer, the question of whether God, or Man, shall be acknowledged as Lord.Now really, do the Arminians consider that a fair statement of Arminianism? Recall how anxious, indeed determined, you are that Calvin's views be presented fairly.
What quote is this from? I would like to see the enire context please. For the record I believe in the omniscience of God totally and completely. (Psa.139)
This denial of God's Determinate Foreknowledge places fortheDeclaration well beyond the errors of mere Pelagianism, deep into the fatal error of the Socinian heresy.
It does, does it? You guys are very funny! So, one cannot deny TULIP without being a Socinain!
The problem with a heretic who denies God's omniscient foreknowledge is that you are no longer debating with a fellow Nicene-creed Christian about the nature of God's relations to Man; you are debating with someone who is fatally confused about the nature of God Himself. Since he apprehends that God's perfect Foreknowledge of Man's choices necessarily implies predestination (for if God sovereignly intended that the Man should make different choices, He could simply create the Man differently in the first place), he has sought to resolve the difficulty in favor of "Man's Will" by denying God's omniscience.
There is the issue, right there you louse. Omniscience does not mean Predestination. God could choose to allow certain things to happen (the fall of Satan and Adam) to accomplish what He wanted to accomplish, the preservation of free will creatures who will freely respond to Him.
You, are just like 'doc' nothing more then a philosophical determinist (B.F Skinner). Moreover, your blasphemy makes God the author of since since as you say 'He could have made him differently'. Yea, thats right, He could have made Him without free will!
The trouble is, a "god" whose omniscience is denied is not the God of the Bible at all, but a stupid, bumbling little "god" of ftD's own imagining. FortheDeclaration may call his "god" by the name of "Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit", but he might as well call him "Big Guy, Junior and the Spook". He's NOT the God of the Bible, he's just an impotent little Hearth Idol who doesn't know the End from the Beginning.
One, I never denied God's Omniscience, only your preverted view that it meant that no free will could exist. God knows everything that is going to happen. The question is does He make everything happen or does He allow certain things to happen that are not His will (like sin and death) in order to accomplish His long term Plan, an eternal Kingdom with free will creatures. Now, when Willy brought up the lie the first time that I had denied omniscience, I rebuffed him at once. Ofcourse, you guys are always looking to find a 'heresy' on someone who doesn't join your Calvinistic 'lovefests'.
You are a liar-period! I haven't even posted to you before this thread, what do you know what I believe.
Even so, come Lord Jesus
Well, I am glad you decided that. I will tell what I am, I am a Bible Believer. I believe what the Bible says not what a bunch of philosphical minded dimwits think. Where Arminius is wrong he is wrong and where Calvin is wrong he is wrong. It just so happens that Calvin is wrong most of the time!
If anyone has a question on what I believe you can ask me. Ofcourse, then you can't go around spreading lies that I do not believe in Omniscience.
Even so, come Lord Jesus
Obvious is it? You stated you cannot explain the Fall of Satan and Adam. Nor, can other Calvinist. It just goes into the 'black hole' of the TULIP myth.
in order to support the radical free-will position, a view of human history in which the entire point of God's plan was man's choice.
How, about the entire point of God's plan was creating RATIONAL creatures (having intellect, sensiblity and will) so God could share His happiness with them. Now, God wants those who are sharing that happiness to do so willingly or He gets no pleasure out of it. God could have created us robots and we all could have served Him without a second thought. We would have never known but He would have
The problem with the Calvinist/Arminius debate is that it only centers around salvation. God has a far greater future, in which time now is only a small beginning. It is God who wants free will, so man can choose to love him or not. God gets pleasure in being loved by those whom He loves.
Since there is no love in the Augustian/Calvinistic system it is a godless, lifeless system devoid of any Biblical truth.
Even so, come Lord Jesus
Hey, buddy, you got a question about my theology you ask me. Typical Calvinist hot air double talk. Set up a straw man position (FtD doesn't believe in Omnisciencs (our definition of it) so he doesn't believe God is in control of history, blah, blah, blah.)
You do not have the guts to confront me directly so you start throwing around your theological gibberish around. Just another Calvinist heresy hunter, no better then Calvin who had a better man then him burned at the stake (I know, he wanted him to beheaded instead-how kind).
Even so, come Lord Jesus
Yea, I held the orthodox position that Jesus Christ was begotten in time (Jn.1:18, 1Jn.4:9)as found in the King James Bible. You went running to the corrupt NASB, for the corrupt reading-'begotten god' in Jn.1:18. That is the reading Calvin held to, as do the JW's. So you have two Gods, a unbegotten one and a begotten one.
And I am the heretic? Go figure.
Even so, come Lord Jesus
I believe I have seen that statement written some where else. Old 'OP' wouldn't be quoting someone without giving him credit would he? As for the statement itself it is meaningless.
If you scratch a Calvinist underneath you will find a self-righteous pharisee pretending to be a Christian. See how simple that is, no theological mumbo jumbo.
Even so, come Lord Jesus
I think you believe in God's forknowlege..and election based on that foreknowledge ...I fail to see a meaningful difference in the end result..infact I think the the "foreknowledge" position also shows God's sovereignty in election. If He fore knows who will accept and fails to intervene directly to bring the others he has ,by His lack of direct action, predestined them to hell. We are simply looking at a difference in time not effect. God can choose to act as He will..or not act as He will.Let's remember that foreordination (or predestination) refers most often to the future calling (future, that is, from the perspective of the foundation of the world) of individuals to be numbered among the House of Israel in this life, the Lord's chosen people, whether by birth or adoption, to inherit at a later time the blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob through their faithfulness, or to lose those blessings through rebellion against God and transgression of His holy commandments.
Less frequently, we encounter foreordination to specific office in this life:
Jeremiah 1:4-5
4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
or to eternal life:
2 Thessalonians 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Always keep in mind that while the Lord sends rain upon the just and the unjust, the fulfillment of His promised blessings (such as sanctification of the Spirit, and ultimately the attainment of eternal life), is always conditioned upon our faithfulness and obedience.
D&C 82:10
10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.
If we do not walk the talk -- if we do not live by the light we have -- we are not believers, and the light we have will be taken away eventually. Those who are faithful and live by the light they have will receive more light -- most often line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little.
God bless you for all your kindness! May your children rise up one day and call you blessed! (May they do it again, if they already have.)
The Calvinist does not at God as being in the center of the Universe (even though he piously states that) he sees himself as being the center. God chose him after all didn't He? Gee, I must be something special that God chose me (no reason) and left all those others to go to Hell.
Well, God is Sovereign and who am I to question that wise choice.
Calvinism is arrogrance to the nth degree.Just listening to 'doc' 'willy' 'OP' and 'Jerry" is evidence of that. Pompus windbags all. ( I say that with charity ofcourse)
Even so,come Lord Jesus
It is still irresistible! Moreover, it is still slective. Finally, if it is a delicious cherry-cheesecake-why do you have make them take it?
It is amazing what you guys get away by just talking among yourselves. No wonder you like it so much.
Even so, come Lord Jesus
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