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The Reformers and Church Fathers on Nature, Grace, and Choice
Vanity, vanity, everything is vanity | December 29, 2001 | Andrew Reeves (me)

Posted on 12/29/2001 1:02:06 PM PST by AndrewSshi

There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance,
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance.

A planet of playthings,
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
“The stars aren’t aligned-
Or the gods are malign”
Blame is better to give than receive.

All preordained-
A prisoner in chains-
A victim of venomous fate.
Kicked in the face,
You can't pray for a place
In Heaven's unearthly estate.

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear-
I will choose Free Will.

--Rush, “Freewill,” ©1980.

When Martin Luther defied a Pope and proclaimed salvation only through the ineffable grace of God, he had no idea that he was rending the body of the ancient church that had for so long known only unity. As his revolution spread, though, all Christendom watched as the Church began to fracture like one of the rose windows smashed by a maddened Swiss mob. Northern Germany, Scandinavia, and a large portion of the Swiss cantons turned away from the faith they had known for centuries, causing no small consternation in a civilization that valued timeless truths above novelty, and which viewed the past as the repository of truth and the present and future as decay. When the reformers were accused by men like Cardinal Sadoleto of pulling away from their faith for the sake of unprecedented novelties, both Luther and Calvin responded that it was their medieval forbears who had introduced devilish novelties into the Church, and that they were merely restoring Christianity to its ancient form (“Reply,” 56).

Such claims and counter claims were absolutely vital in the spirit of those times. For if Christ had indeed left His authority with a body of believers upon his ascension, then any faction claiming to possess the true meaning of His scriptures would logically have to be in agreement with that original body that carried on Christ’s truth after His return to His Father. It is outside of the purview of the discipline of history to ask questions about the existence and nature of God or the supernatural claims of any institution. We can, however, examine the claims of historical continuity by the various parties involved: Were Doctors Luther and Calvin reclaiming an ancient theology obscured by centuries of scholastic decadence, or were they, as their opponents claimed, introducing novelties never before seen under the sun? I intend, through an examination of patristic sources in comparison to Luther and Calvin, to demonstrate that the reformers reclaimed certain Augustinian principles, but in carrying them to their logical extremes, went to lengths that were utterly without precedent.

In examining the Reformation and its dogmas, we must first understand the key fulcrum upon which the reformation turned. This point, though, is often obscured when navigating through a list of secondary issues like use of images, liturgical style, church property, etc. We would do well to note that all of these issues pale besides that which drove the reformers to the lengths they went—“Therefore it is clear that, as the soul needs only the Word of God for its life and righteousness, so it is justified by faith alone and not any works; for if it could be justified by anything else, it would not need the Word, and consequently it would not need faith.” The reformation stands or falls on the basis of the assertion that man is justified before God only through His ineffable grace, by faith alone.

At the outset, this should not seem like too much of a problem. Even the most adamant pre-Vatican II Catholic will acknowledge the corrupt nature of man and inability to approach the righteousness of Christ without divine grace. Why then, did the reformers’ preaching of grace cause such a stir? If we delve below the surface, the problem with sola fide soon becomes apparent. If salvation comes by grace through faith alone, then no works of man can have anything do to with his salvation. If that is the case, then, as Luther tells us, this discounts any act of the will, for if one were to be able to will oneself to believe, faith would simply be a meritorious work (Luther, 135). Calvin reaches a similar conclusion in his Institutes (XXI, 1), and such thinking leaves us with the uncomfortable notion that, if one is to be saved by faith alone, then man, shorn of his free will, is reduced to the role of a puppet dancing on God’s strings. This of course opens up a host of other difficulties, and the perplexed believer is left asking if God in His love also responsible for evil. In the end, the Roman Catholic Church rejected reformed dogma in order to defend the doctrine of man’s freedom (Tracy, 101).

This rejection then left the reformers in the position of standing against the ancient Catholic Church and demanding that they, rather than the ancient church, possessed apostolic truth. Erasmus of Rotterdam had this to say about Luther’s claim to have re-discovered the truth:

Even though Christ’s spirit might permit His people to be in error in an unimportant question on which man’s salvation does not depend, no one would believe that this Spirit has deliberately overlooked error in His church for 1300 years, and that He did not deem one of all the pious and saintly Church Fathers worthy to be inspired, with what, they contend, is the very essence of all evangelical teaching (Erasmus, 19).
Erasmus lays a fairly serious charge at Luther’s feet. The answer, then to the question of whether or not the reformers held views in concord with the ancient church lies in ascertaining Erasmus’s assertion that the denial of free will is completely alien to the historical record of the Church’s teachings.

Since Erasmus felt it meet to bring the Church Fathers into the discussion, I shall begin my examination with patristic sources. I intend first to examine the works of Justin Martyr, a second century convert and one of the first Christian apologists. I intend to examine Justin’s work as a case study for several reasons, chief of which are that his first and second apologies were written both to answer objections to the Christian faith and outline its basic principles, and, if we are looking for a picture of early Christianity as handed down to the apostles, we could do no better than to examine the product of a Church removed from the death of the last apostle by less than a century.

To properly comprehend the early Church’s positions on the freedom of the will, we must first examine the philosophical background of the classical world from which Christianity emerged. We quickly find that, as a general rule, the classical world was hostile to the notion of humanity possessing the free ability to choose. Democritus with his mechanistic view of the cosmos and the Eleatics with their monism both held that all events and choices were under the sway of a deterministic necessity (“Free Will”). Aristotle was a bit more optimistic, allowing for contingency, but then, with his cosmos brought into being by a primum mobile, it is hard to escape the notion that all subsequent causes must be dependent of the first cause (ibid). Nor did the stoics allow for free choice, which was precluded by their pantheistic picture of the universe (ibid). It was against such background that Christianity addressed the issue of man’s freedom.

In Chapters XLIII and XLIV of his Second Apology, Justin examines the question as to whether or not men are free. His conclusion is an unambiguous rejection of the classical world’s determinism. Martyr makes several arguments, one based on a usage of the term “devour” in Isaiah, and another on the dubious notion that Plato learned what he knew from the Hebrew prophets (Martyr, XLIV). We shall pass over these, though, in favor of the much more powerful argument of responsibility. He tells his reader “unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions” (Martyr, XLIII). Justin hammers this point home further in stating that God made man, “not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice” (ibid). For Martyr, the sinner would not be worthy of punishment if his action were not of his own volition, but a result of the condition in which he was made (ibid). He then quotes Deuteronomy 30:15, 19: “Behold before thy face are good and evil: choose the good” (1.2.5).

Augustine in his answer affirmed that man does evil through the use of his free choice (Free Choice, 1.16.35), and that evil comes not from God, but rather from a negation of His goodness, that is, in a man turning from the good that which is God to follow his own desires (ibid, 2.20.54). In agreement with Justin Martyr, he asks rhetorically, “How could a man be punished justly, if he used his will for the very purpose for which it was given” (ibid, 2.1.3)? He goes on to state that to be justly punished, sin must be committed by a free act of the will (ibid).

In this context, when Augustine speaks of the decrees of God, he speaks of God’s predestination as coming through the foreknowledge of His omniscience. Indeed, he goes out of his way to state that foreknowledge is not the same as compulsion (Free Choice, 3.4.10), and states that, simply because God has foreseen an evil does not mean that He is responsible (ibid, 3.4.11). He draws the notion of foreknowledge to its logical conclusion, stating that because God foreknows everything, then events must happen as He has foreseen (ibid, 3.3.8). This appears to satisfactorily wrap up the issue of God’s decrees.

All of the above would seem to create the impression that God’s only action in working out His will is in foreseeing that which will occur and thus working out His will through man’s will. But we must carefully bear in mind that Augustine is speaking of the origins of evil. We have not yet examined what Augustine taught from scripture concerning, not man’s reprobation, but his salvation. When we look to this issue, the picture of Augustine becomes much murkier.

Augustine notes that the first man fell through his own completely free choice. Adam, in Augustine’s thinking, was completely free to choose either good or evil, and opted for evil (Free Choice, 3.24.73). From this point, humanity was enslaved to original sin. The original sin came through free will, but subsequently, though still free, the will was subject to corruption, and thus, unable to rise to salvation. This can be summed up in the statement, “But, though man fell through his own will, he cannot rise through his own will” (ibid, 2.20.54).

At this point in his career, Augustine might have been willing to acknowledge that man can freely look for the grace of God in order to assist him in doing good, stating that man, though subject to concupiscence, nonetheless has the knowledge of God, by whose grace he might rise to a higher state (ibid, 3.19.53). If we were to cease our examination of Augustine here, we would find a ready partisan of Rome, affirming man’s free choice, predestination through foreknowledge, and the ability of man to choose God. Alas, the picture is not that simple.

For at the turn of the fifth century, the notorious heretic Pelagius preached that man in and of himself had the ability to be perfect, and that the fall of Adam, rather than plunging the whole of the human race into sin, served merely as a bad example (Nature and Grace, 9.10). To the dismay of the good Doctor, Pelagius and his followers sought to bolster support for their beliefs with Augustine’s very own writings on free will (Retractions, 1.9.3). Augustine’s response to this heretic’s teachings generated his later writings on the will, predestination, and divine grace.

It must be noted that Augustine’s later writings on original sin and predestination seems to show a markedly different posture from his earlier work on free will. While it has been argued that this hardened stance was due either to his reaction to the fall of Rome or the Pelagian heresy, it is more likely that his own views were gradually evolving under the influence of St. Paul, independent of external circumstances. I base my judgment on Augustine’s quotation of his Retractions in On the Predestination of the Saints:

I indeed labored in defense of the free choice of the human will, but the grace of God conquered, and only thus was I able to arrive at the point where I understood that the Apostle spoke with the clearest truth, “For who singles you out? Or what do you have that you have not received? And if you have received it, why do you glory as if you had not received it” (1 Corinthians 4:7, qtd. in Predestination, 4.8)?
The above taken into account, the later Augustine still believes that those who choose faith in Christ do so of their own free will, but with the important caveat that God has prepared the will of the elect to choose Him (Predestination, 6.11). Under these teachings of Augustine, free will alone is insufficient to believe in Christ, and indeed, if free will is enough for the believer to be saved, then “Christ has died in vain” (Nature and Grace, 40.47). The will of man is both corrupt and inadequate to seek salvation. The elect are not called because they believe, but so that they may believe (Predestination, 17.34). We see Augustine at his most Protestant when he further recounts his own changing views in stating “I said most truly: ‘For just as in those “whom God has chosen,” not works initiate merit, but faith…’ [Emphasis added.] But that merit of faith is also a gift of God…” (Predestination, 3.7) Here, then, the Catholic, to his dismay, sees what seems to be protestant doctrine issuing from the pen of the arch-Catholic.

We will be going too far, though, if we make Augustine a five point Calvinist. We must note that, for starters, when he issued a retraction concerning his first writings on the nature of evil, he stated that free will was inadequate for man to rise to God. He never, though, changed his statement that evil comes only from the free exercise of the will, and never denies that in choosing to do evil, Adam was under no compulsion. When he mentions predestination, he is quite clear that only by God’s predestination can man come to an efficacious and saving faith, but what is striking is that predestination is only mentioned regarding salvation. Those that are condemned do so merely because they follow their own corrupt will, and God justly punishes their evil deeds. Augustine takes his stand for grace and salvation through election, while at the same time avoiding the horror of double predestination.

For the next several centuries, the Church would follow this Augustinian path. The Church rejected the teachings of Pelagius, and a hundred years later at the Council of Orange, issued a series of canons affirming the Augustinian position on grace and predestination. Canon 4 states that if anyone contends that God’s cleansing of man from sin is contingent upon the will then he is in error; Canon 5 states that the beginning of faith itself comes from the grace of God rather than the will of man; Canon 6 states that grace does not depend on the cooperation of man (“Canons of Orange”). As the Church moved on through the centuries, she attempted to carry on in the steps of the African Doctor in straddling the fence between grace and free will. By the beginning of the High Middle Ages, though, the Church was pulling back towards a system that acknowledged the primacy of the human will. By the turn of the twelfth century, St. Anselm of Canterbury wrote in his De Concordia that free choice co-exists with divine grace and cooperates with it (Anselm, 453). With such pronouncements, The Church had arrived at a position specifically condemned by St. Augustine (cf. Letter 225). We shall now examine how well Luther and Calvin succeeded in their attempts to return to his teachings.

Luther would be in perfect concord with Augustine in his affirmation of salvation by grace through faith. In The Bondage of the Will, though, he arrives at Augustine, but then passes him completely, arriving in territory where none have trodden before. Augustine stated that man’s fall came through his choice, and the resulting corruption of human nature resulted in a will that commits sin of its own volition. Luther does the good doctor one better, though, and asserts that the wicked man sins “under the impulse of divine power” (Luther, 130). Luther even challenges Augustine in his definition of free will, stating that, if in a fallen state the will is unable to seek God, then it is not in fact free (ibid, 113), and that Augustine and others who have called such a will free are degrading the very word (ibid, 120). Luther goes to the extreme end of the spectrum, and then beyond the pale, but recognizes and embraces this: “Therefore, we must go to extremes, deny free will altogether, and ascribe everything to God” (ibid, 133)!

Indeed, his statement that a will unable to do good is in fact under compulsion makes fine logical sense, but the end result is a man with no freedom, and one whose evil must be the responsibility of divine omnipotence. Luther here returns to the Augustinian notion that in His omnipotence God allows but does not cause the workings of evil in order to further His divine plan (ibid, 130). It almost seems here that Luther is pulling back from the brink of a precipice to which he has been running headlong, staring into an abyss to which he dare not attempt to apply his own feeble reason. And indeed, though throughout this debate on free will with Erasmus Luther employs the techniques of reason and dialectic, in the end he felt that any attempt to use reason to fathom the mind of God was a fairly silly exercise (ibid, 129). As the reformation continued, though, another figure would arrive who would see no problem in attempting to apply human reason to the workings of the Eternal God, taking every statement on grace, sin, and God’s decrees to their horrifying ends, leaping joyfully into the abyss from which Luther held back. That man was Jean Calvin.

Even the extreme bombast of Luther’s Bondage of the Will does not take the horrific final step in the picture it paints of God’s omnipotence. Like Augustine, Luther admits that since the fall, man has been a slave to sin, but Calvin finally dares to examine from whence came the fall. His conclusion, unlike Augustine’s, is that God actively caused the fall of Adam and the whole human race into sin and damnation as part of His “wonderful plan” (Institutes, XXIII, 7). The ruthless Frenchman then goes on to state that God is nonetheless just in punishing the reprobate (ibid, XXIII, 4). Though this horribly contradicts both Augustine and Justin Martyr’s writings of responsibility, Calvin barely hesitates when he states that he is leaving behind the bulk of the Church’s traditions in favor of his alleged ruthless adherence to scripture (ibid, XXII, 1). Calvin has no problem in that asserting that, since salvation is not by works, then neither is damnation (ibid, XXII, 11), and that the reason for the eternal torment of the vast majority of the human race lies, not in their guilt, but in the arbitrary choice of God.

This horror, then, is the end result of the reformation: God has arbitrarily predestined some to eternal life, and has likewise predestined others to eternal damnation. Calvin then states that certain people might object to this, stating that it makes God a cruel tyrant, to which he responds that since God is both omnipotent and the creator of everything, then all that He decrees, ipso facto, is righteous, good, and just (Institutes, XXIII, 2). He then has the chutzpah to go on and tell the reader that his dogma is not one of absolute might, since God is “free from fault,” and the quintessence of Law and Right (ibid).

Jean Calvin then, has started from Augustine, who among the Church Fathers was most friendly to predestination, and taken the teachings of predestination to their logical extreme, crafting a dogma that would have caused St. Augustine to blanch in horror. Did St. Augustine believe in divine election and predestination of believers? Most assuredly. It was up to Jean Calvin, though, to add double predestination and eliminate Augustine’s free will theodicy in favor of a God who has decreed evil and suffering for his own amusement.

I submit, though, that such questions concerning free will and predestination would inevitably have come to the fore and been the cause of controversy even without Luther and Calvin. The reason for this is that Augustine loomed large over the western Church down through the centuries, and at times there seem to be two Augustines. Why is this the case? The reason that there seem to be two St. Augustines lies in the Bible itself, since there seem to be two St. Pauls*. We have the Paul who tells the believer in Romans Chapter 9 that God prepares some men for eternal life and some for damnation, answering the obvious objection to this with a “Who are you, O man, to talk back to God” (Romans 9:20)? On the other hand, we are also told that there is a loving God who “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth” (1 Timothy 2:4). Such contradictions in the Christian faith, then, were present at its inception.

Indeed, such difficulties are inevitable in any faith that attempts to posit a God who is all-powerful, all knowing, and all good. Paul, who likely never intended to be considered a basis for systematic theology, is all over the map when it comes to how to resolve such questions. As such, there is no pat resolution to these seeming contradictions. Perhaps the error of the church was to seek one; Luther is at his best not when he is glorying in the slavery of man, but when he is proclaiming the mercy of Christ.

Works Cited

Anselm of Canterbury, Saint. The Major Works. Eds. Brian Davies and G. R. Evans. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1998.

Augustine of Hippo, Saint. Four Anti-Pelagian Writings: On Nature and Grace, On the Proceedings of Pelagius, On the Predestination of the Saints, On the Gift of Perseverance. Trans. John A. Mourant and William J. Collinge. Washington, D.C.: The Catholic University of America Press, 1992.

---. The Problem of Free Choice. Trans. Dom Mark Pontifex. New York: Newman Press, 1955.

The Problem of Free Choice. Appendix. Excerpt from Retractions.

Calvin, Jean. Excerpts from Institutes of the Christian Religion. The Protestant Reformation. Ed. Hans J. Hillerbrand. New York: Harper Torchbooks, 1968. 178-221.

---. “Reply to Sadoleto.” A Reformation Debate. Ed. John C. Olin. New York, Fordham University Press, 2000. 43-88.

"The Canons of the Council of Orange.” 529 A.D. Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics.

“Free Will.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Michael Maher. 1909. Transcribed 1999.

Martyr, Justin, Saint. “The Second Apology.” The Ante-Nicene Fathers. Eds. Alexander Roberts, D.D., and James Donaldson, LL.D. New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1899. 188-194.

Erasmus of Rotterdam. Excerpts from The Free Will. Winter 3-94.

Luther, Martin. Excerpts from The Bondage of the Will. Winter 98-138.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: calvin
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To: the_doc
Even without Luther's "help"

Don't be coy. Luther changed Scripture to fit his doctrine, not to clarify St. Paul's writing. St. Paul is clearly teaching that works of the Old Testament Mosaic Law, like circumcision for instance, could not bring about salvation. Faith does bring about salvation, provided it is accompanied by charity. The New Testament makes this clear, despite Luther's editing, in Galatians, 1 Corinthians, John, Matthew, James and Ephesians.

These are just some examples of Scripture that refute Luther along with his own words: "We are obliged to yield many things to the Papists - that they possess the Word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it." Commentary on St. John, Chapter 16.

21 posted on 12/30/2001 9:48:28 AM PST by SMEDLEYBUTLER
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To: SMEDLEYBUTLER; RnMomof7; fortheDeclaration
These are just some examples of Scripture that refute Luther along with his own words: "We are obliged to yield many things to the Papists - that they possess the Word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it." Commentary on St. John, Chapter 16.

This is just ignorant.

Scholars widely acknowledge that all the books in the New Testament were in common usage among ancient Christians at the time the canon was established. Moreover, the Orthodox church had preserved the Byzantize stream of manuscripts. I think that you can probably grasp that Luther's remarks about the "Papists" applies to Rome, not to the eastern Orthodox. Luther himself used a Textus Receptus in his translation work as did all the English, Spanish, French and Italian bibles produced in the Reformation era. So Luther's remarks in this instance prove very little. But I suppose such ahistorical notions provide comfort to those who like to pretend that Rome is the mistress of Christianity.

What the aborning Roman church did do was to stamp out heretical and corrupted manuscripts and to guard the canon. For that, Rome may be given some credit. However, in the course of stamping out other heresies, Rome perpetrated a great many massacres and allotted to her popes the right to overrule plainly written scripture and to add the Apocrypha to the canon at the Council of Trent after it had been rejected by the Council of Hippo which established the original canon. Obviously, something had changed over all those centuries. So you aren't left guessing, what changed was that Rome departed completely from scriptural practices. Rome established a religion of Papa (the pope) and the Protestants and their kind established a religion based on the Word.

I don't envy your manmade religion. Nor do I find its claims credible.

Frankly, I doubt that Luther actually believed that God's Word could have been destroyed had the church of Rome failed to become the state religion of the Roman Empire.

God preserves His Word. Regardless of what you or I or Luther think about it. God preserves it to this day against the attempts of heretics and apostate churches to destroy or alter His Word.
22 posted on 12/30/2001 10:40:00 AM PST by George W. Bush
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To: Romulus
Are you saying that God will save a man who rejects him?

Did I say that? Where?

23 posted on 12/30/2001 11:26:51 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: good1
Man's will is not free. It is either unregerate and bound by sin, or it is regenerate and the bondage of the sin-bound will is broken. Hence the Bible writer's proclaimation that he is the "slave" of Christ (Romans 1:1; Philippians 1:1).

Amen

24 posted on 12/30/2001 11:28:08 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: George W. Bush
This is just ignorant.

Scholars widely acknowledge that all the books in the New Testament were in common usage among ancient Christians at the time the canon was established. Moreover, the Orthodox church had preserved the Byzantize stream of manuscripts. I think that you can probably grasp that Luther's remarks about the "Papists" applies to Rome, not to the eastern Orthodox. Luther himself used a Textus Receptus in his translation work as did all the English, Spanish, French and Italian bibles produced in the Reformation era. So Luther's remarks in this instance prove very little. But I suppose such ahistorical notions provide comfort to those who like to pretend that Rome is the mistress of Christianity.

What this is is denial. The word of God is sharper than any two edged sword. if you can tell yourself that the "evil" Luther is the one that changed the word of God you can defend some very unscripitual beliefs.

Today ,other than the non canonical books the bibles that Catholics and Protestants read are the same...so this argument holds no water.

25 posted on 12/30/2001 11:34:03 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Romulus; RnMomof7; CCWoody
Are you saying that God will save a man who rejects him?

RnMomof7 didn't say that. But I'll say it.

God is completely sovereign. If He desires a man to repent and to serve Him, that man will repent. He may not like it. He may not want it. But, in the end, he will serve God if God desires it.

Salvation is of God and through God. To believe otherwise is to believe that the highest principle of Christian belief is that of man's will.

In the issue of sovereignty, we in the end must choose: either God is sovereign or man is sovereign.

The Bible is filled with stories of how God fulfills His will whether any man likes it or not. These modernist notions about "choosing" are a part of the ridiculous legacy of Finney and Graham and other modernists who plead and beg on and on to just "choose" Christ, to "make a decision" for Christ.

No wonder their actual rate of conversion is so dismal. They rely upon the ability of man to choose to be holy. It can never be. But they do have a lot of people fooled into giving them money to pursue this fruitless labor.

I say no man chooses to serve God. A man can choose to obey God and His Word. But the issue of salvation is in God's hands alone. No preacher or pope has any influence on whether the preaching of the Gospel takes root in any man's soul.

If you believe that man is more powerful than God and can actually thwart the will of God, then I say you have a manmade religion and a weak puny false god. My God can overcome all things and the will of all men, at His choosing. He has mercy upon whom He wills. His grace is like the wind and blows where He wills it.
26 posted on 12/30/2001 12:12:45 PM PST by George W. Bush
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To: George W. Bush
Are you saying that God will save a man who rejects him?

RnMomof7 didn't say that. But I'll say it.

God is completely sovereign. If He desires a man to repent and to serve Him, that man will repent. He may not like it. He may not want it. But, in the end, he will serve God if God desires it.

Okkkkkkkk I did not read the question the same way you did. I believe that the first thing God does is to change us so we do want him. What was dead ,now alive by His Grace.. seeks after the lifegiver. A dead man will not seek Christ. God knows those that are His...no man that has been "quickened " will reject Him..so it is a moot question..( at least in my mind ..for what thats worth:>)

27 posted on 12/30/2001 12:37:09 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: George W. Bush
So, when the Bible says "choose life and not death", that's really a fraud, because free will is illusory, and man's choices are irrelevant to his salvation? In that case, what's the point of "accepting" Jesus?
28 posted on 12/30/2001 12:55:51 PM PST by Romulus
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To: SMEDLEYBUTLER; RnMomof7; Matchett-PI; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Elsie
Don't be coy.

Well, then, don't be dishonest. Gosh,Romans 3:28 says PRECISELY what I said that it says. And it REFUTES the Romanist position concerning justification by faith-plus-works.

Luther's theology was correct on this point. This is why he and Calvin and all consistent Protestants since their day have regarded Roman Catholicism as hopelessly confused. You can't just "add" the statement by James to the statement by Paul--because Paul explicitly demands that you not do so!

The statement by James has to be fitted into the overarching teaching by Paul. And that means that Calvin was correct, as I have repeatedly pointed out.

I realize that this is impossibly bad news for RCs to hear, but I'm correct. Romanism is a terrible error. Puh-leez wake up to what is going on. There is more at stake in this than than you are willing to admit.

29 posted on 12/30/2001 1:15:45 PM PST by the_doc
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To: Romulus
How free is your will Rom?
30 posted on 12/30/2001 2:49:22 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
It varies. Sometimes it's actually quite expensive.
31 posted on 12/30/2001 7:50:22 PM PST by Romulus
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To: Romulus
That is a cute answer but I asked a serious question Rom..How free do you see the will of man?
32 posted on 12/30/2001 8:04:42 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Free enough to turn down God Almighty. If that isn't absolute freedom, it's mighty close.
33 posted on 12/30/2001 8:07:35 PM PST by Romulus
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To: Romulus
Well I don't think there is any such thing as absolute free will,our free will is the victim of circumstances and events.

You have the freedom to make a decision to jump off a 100 story building. but once you are in mid air you can not change your will. The outcome of our wills are dependent on circumstances and natural forces. You can not "will" and A from your favorite teacher....well you can will it,but his will overrides yours.

So although we talk about free will in reality our wills are very constrained.Our wills are influenced by circumstances and events. God has given man the will to do what he wills to do.But I do not know that one can will something that God does not want.

34 posted on 12/30/2001 8:40:53 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
But I do not know that one can will something that God does not want.

Are you saying that God wanted 9/11 to happen? That He wants murder, adultery, and fraud to take place? What kind of good God is that? Are we nothing more than his puppets and playthings?

35 posted on 12/30/2001 8:44:50 PM PST by Romulus
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To: f.Christian
... as the fruit of his faith. I'll use that phrase as a means to bump for future reference while I copy and print this important thread for bedtime reading. Would that more Christian brethren could subordinate their egos to live their lives as fruit rather than leaves in the breeze of show.
36 posted on 12/30/2001 8:53:02 PM PST by MHGinTN
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To: Romulus
Do you think evil (Satan)is stronger than God Rom? Do you think that Satan can do anything without God's permission.?
37 posted on 12/30/2001 8:57:44 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
God's permission and His will are two different things. Satan's efforts are of no avail unless we choose to cooperate with him.
38 posted on 12/30/2001 9:04:06 PM PST by Romulus
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To: Romulus
What is the difference between His will and permission? Satan had to ask God to oppress Job..God set the guidelines of the temptation..

Will God allow something that is contrary to His plan?

39 posted on 12/30/2001 9:24:09 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: AndrewSshi
How can a being described as being "dead in trespasses and sin" Ephesians 2:1 - with hearts described as "deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked" Jeremiah 17:9 - be able, much less "free" to choose anything but evil?

The worship of the great god, free will, is one of the errors most deadly to man's soul.

40 posted on 12/31/2001 2:32:00 PM PST by Mahone
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