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FBI agents rebel over new powers
London Observer ^ | Sunday December 2, 2001 | Ed Vulliamy in New York

Posted on 12/01/2001 8:12:17 PM PST by OKCSubmariner

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To: MJY1288; golitely; LSJohn; Judge Parker; roughrider; Marianne; BlueDogDemo; archy; Nita Nupress...
Based on your previous replies and deliberate mischaracterizations and false revisonisms MJY1288, I would say you are a disinformation specialist working for the wrong people

The government bureaucrats and Bush adminstartion can do no wrong in your eyes. Even Republicans in the Bush administration make big mistakes and they should be called on it by other Republicans who are honest conservatives.

It seems like every time I criticize Bush administration officials and their policies, your weak defense is that you blame it on the Democrats or liberal newspapers.

Well my critcisms are based on first hand knowledge of corruption in the FBI and DOJ in the Bush administration and my information does not come from Democrats but from Repubs who have met directly with Ashcroft.

Bob Barr and Ron Paul and Alan Keyes are conservative Republs who strongly disagree with Ashcroft and Mueller and Bush on many COnstitutional issues I just raised in my comments.

21 posted on 12/01/2001 8:36:40 PM PST by OKCSubmariner
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To: F16Fighter
The fact of the matter is that the IRS and FBI have already gone after Scientologists, Moonies, Christian Identity Separatists and other fringe cults, none of whom in total on their worst day, pose the threat to national security which radical Islamists do on their best day.

Much like the no prayer is school rules which exempt Islamists, the current patchwork of civil liberties rules exempt the political well-connected as well.

If we cannot go back to the respect for the Bill of Rights practiced under Thomas Jefferson, the least we could do is revert to the J. Edgar Hoover era when groups were target based on their threat to America rather than on their lack of connections and political muscle.

22 posted on 12/01/2001 8:37:16 PM PST by Rubber Duckie
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To: woofie
And considering how much Ashcroft likes Bill Clinton and Janet Reno it makes perfect sense that he is willing to go to jail for protecting them and continue this massive conspiracy < sarcasm\> off.

The good people on planet Mulu will be impressed

23 posted on 12/01/2001 8:37:20 PM PST by MJY1288
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To: OKCSubmariner
Why did he refuse?
24 posted on 12/01/2001 8:38:06 PM PST by maranatha
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To: Fred Mertz
Also, if it was known that churches (for example) were strictly off-limits to the FBI or any kind of surveillance, why wouldn't they become havens for terrorists who want to plan attacks in peace and quiet?
Just asking.
25 posted on 12/01/2001 8:40:40 PM PST by Lancey Howard
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To: JD86
These must be the same agents who supported FBI actions at Ruby Ridge, supported Janet Reno in her numerous coverups, and turned down intelligence from Sudan twice. I thought a new broom was supposed to sweep clean. Bush is playing with fire keeping these creeps, Tenet, and pinhead Mineta. He will find that these characters are even worse ingrates than grover Nyquest's muslims!
26 posted on 12/01/2001 8:40:41 PM PST by Righty1
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To: OKCSubmariner
Please Sir, in times of national emergency, please do not post this stupud leftist newspaper, no direct quotes, etc. bullsh*t and even more stupid rumors about OKC.

If the FBI was so intent on getting you, or us, they would have done it years ago.

And for this BS of every anti-government whacko calling himnself a "Patriot," most are turning out to be nothing but angry, nutty old men.

27 posted on 12/01/2001 8:41:01 PM PST by MindBender26
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To: Fred Mertz
I was dumbstruck by the callers' comments: Whatever it takes to make us safer, etc.

I'd quote Franklin on safety vs liberty, but I've been told on other threads that ole Ben was a good guy but he's irrelevant because he never faced the kind of "dire situation" we find ourselves in today. Makes you wonder....

28 posted on 12/01/2001 8:42:44 PM PST by Leroy S. Mort
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To: Rubber Duckie
My comment about Islam was TONGUE IN CHEEK.
29 posted on 12/01/2001 8:43:43 PM PST by F16Fighter
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To: _Jim
Get OUT the tin foil the THIRD WAY is en route ...

Better than the BATF way BATF _Jim.:)  You worried about your job security?  Don't worry, the goverment will continue to cover for you as long as you stay in line.

WarHawk42

30 posted on 12/01/2001 8:44:32 PM PST by WarHawk42
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To: MindBender26
And most of those angry nutty old men are hanging out at FR, scared to death of military tribunals, and convincing themselves, and each other, that they are constitutional experts.
31 posted on 12/01/2001 8:44:48 PM PST by clintonh8r
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To: Righty1
Keeping them wasn't entirely intentional. With all the delay after the election...the new administration lost 3 months of preparation time for the transition. They got the first tier of people in and probably most of the second...but there are literally thousands of lower level govt employees who are hold-overs. It sounds like this FBI agent is one of them.
32 posted on 12/01/2001 8:44:54 PM PST by JD86
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To: Wallaby; Uncle Bill; golitely; LSJohn; Judge Parker; archy; Fred Mertz; ratcat; thinden; t-shirt...
_Jim in reply #10 is still desperately trying to score points but keeps losing. The government shill thug must feel emboldened by Mueller and Ashcroft efforts to create a police state to take out all of us who dare make all the Jims in the Fed bureacracy feel insecure and inferior.

Bush's advisor on the Third Way and Communitarianism in the White House is Don Eberly-see reference inside article.

Bush and the 'Third Way'

September 3, 2001

By Joseph Farah

© 2001 WorldNetDaily.com

The more of George W. Bush you see, the more he sounds like and governs like Bill Clinton – perhaps minus the personal indiscretions.

This is not my observation alone. Way back in February, Washington Post staff writer Dana Milbank focused on this in a front-page news story that should be required reading for all those getting ready to e-mail me angry missives.

In that story, the Post revealed that Bush has embraced many of the ideas in a political movement called "communitarianism," which, places the importance of society ahead of the unfettered rights of the individual.

I know some of you are disbelieving me already. You think I'm joking. You think I'm pulling your leg. You think I'm exaggerating. Again, please read the original news story on this for yourself before you rush to judgment. You can find the Washington Post story reprinted on the Communitarian Network's own website.

"This is the ultimate Third Way," explains Don Eberly, an adviser in the Bush White House, using, as the Post points out, a favorite phrase of Clinton.

According to the Post, and I concur with the reporter's analysis, "communitarianism" holds that "years of celebrating individual freedom have weakened the bonds of community and that the rights of the individual must be balanced against the interests of society as a whole."

Bush is reported to have consulted with leading communitarian thinker Robert D. Putnam on the crafting of his inaugural speech.

"Some of Bush's ideas are objectionable to civil liberties advocates and strict constitutionalists on the left and the right," explained the Post, "but they have broad support in both parties."

I should think such ideas would be objectionable to people committed to civil liberties and the Constitution. The ideas expressed are the antithesis of American values.

The article also says World magazine Editor Marvin Olasky, the man credited with inventing the term "compassionate conservative," is himself a communitarian. Olasky flat-out denies it, and I believe him. So, this does call into question some of the reporter's other assertions.

Maybe you're unfamiliar with this term, communitarian. It's not one we hear every day. I would suggest opening up your dictionary and looking it up. Here's what you will find under "communitarian" if you use Webster's New World, the preferred choice of U.S. newspaper people: "a member or advocate of a communistic or communalistic community."

That's it. No alternative definitions offered. But you choose any dictionary you like. I suspect you'll find a similar definition.

But we don't have to look it up in the dictionary to see the striking resemblance between communitarian thought and communist thought. Both center on the idea that the individual needs to be de-emphasized in favor of the "community" or the "state."

The best I can decipher of this popular new idea of communitarianism is that it is not a new idea at all. To put it in its simplest form, I would describe it as a form of communism for people who believe in God.

Now Bush makes more sense to me. I fully understand why I find his policies repulsive and nonsensical. I see clearly why he is an enemy of freedom.

You see, I like individual rights. I believe in individual rights with all my heart and soul. I believe it is one of the cornerstones of true freedom, as articulated by our founding fathers. I am not ready to sell short the American Dream. I still believe in old-fashioned freedom, in self-government, in the inalienable rights of the individual and the limited powers of the state.

These are concepts at odds with communitarianism.

I reject communism – by whatever euphemism you employ.

You can read more about this philosophy and how it is playing havoc in education in this country in the upcoming October issue of Whistleblower magazine. In that issue, which will be mailed to subscribers in about two weeks, Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt, former senior policy adviser for the federal Office of Educational Research and Improvement in the U.S. Department of Education, explains how communitarian thought is dictating a national education policy. She is also author of "The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America," a book available in the WorldNetDaily store.

If this is the Third Way, I think I'll try to find another way. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joseph Farah is editor and chief executive officer of WorldNetDaily.com and writes a daily column

33 posted on 12/01/2001 8:45:04 PM PST by OKCSubmariner
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To: OKCSubmariner
So far, The Unidentiied Flying Object threads are out-drawing this little 'piece'.

Fitting indeed, it is ...

34 posted on 12/01/2001 8:45:29 PM PST by _Jim
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To: WarHawk42
What have we here? Another nutty, angry old man?
35 posted on 12/01/2001 8:46:27 PM PST by _Jim
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To: _Jim
I wouldn't be so paranoid if those people would stop following me!
36 posted on 12/01/2001 8:47:25 PM PST by clintonh8r
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To: Lancey Howard
They met elsewhere. Strip joints, hotels, restaurants, etc. The feds were monitoring many of their moves. But they failed miserably. Now they want to act like they're making adjustments to prevent any more terrorist attacks.

Churches and places of worship are sacrosanct. This country was 'discovered' because of religious persecution elsewhere. Now, it's happening here.

37 posted on 12/01/2001 8:47:26 PM PST by Fred Mertz
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To: OKCSubmariner
I believe the plan is to infiltrate the Mosques - to blend in - in other words to do what the terrorists did. People will go in undercover and play the part of a regular mosque attender. He will interact with people in the mosque and get to know them. If there are more terrorists in these places, it will eventually become evident.

You can believe what you want, but I am confident our new President would never allow the Farah's or Falwell's to be spyed upon. After all - they haven't killed 5,000 people!

38 posted on 12/01/2001 8:48:13 PM PST by Sueann
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To: Fred Mertz
Do we have yet another angry, nutty old man here too?

Now don't het angry-er - I'm just asking, 'cause, I'm curious ...

(It is CERTAINLY tin-foil time on the old board tonight ...)

39 posted on 12/01/2001 8:48:51 PM PST by _Jim
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To: clintonh8r
I wouldn't be so paranoid if those people would stop following me!

You and me both!

40 posted on 12/01/2001 8:49:52 PM PST by _Jim
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