No Contest: Tolkien runs rings around Potter

Weekend Journal (WSJ) ^ | 30 Nov 01 | Brian M. Carney

[Petronski]

Just when the menace of terrorism has darkened normal life and the guns of war have sounded, moviegoers on both sides of the Atlantic are turning out in huge numbers to see Harry Potter ride a broom across the silver screen and fight . . . evil.

[Dominic Harr]

Michael Jackson's "Thriller" is one of the best-selling albums of all time, yet nobody will ever convince me that he's a better vocal artist than Bing Crosby.

But I assume you'd agree that, at the very least, MJ is a 'great' entertainer?

As I said, I truly like the LotR much, much more than Hairy Potter. But I think both are fantastic. HP is more of a 'Michael Jackson'-type thing, absolutely. But it's great none-the-less.

And the concept I think you're missing is that of the 'fun' novel. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but you seem to be saying that only hard-core serious literature is worth reading -- and I *very much* disagree. Sometimes, a good, fast-paced action story can be every bit as rewarding as a classic.

Yes, my 10 year old daughter does enjoy reading serious fiction. She's loved the Hobbit, and is enjoying the LotR so far. In fact, her passion is poetry, and she's just 'found' e.e. cummings, which is some very experimental use of language.

But the Potter books are an entirely different type of novel. More akin to Robert E. Howard than J.R.R.Tolkein. More of a 'Stephen King'. As literature, Potter pales. As pure storytelling, it's far better than LOTR. The pacing is far faster, the characters are more sympathetic, more easy to relate to. Far less dialog and 'explaining' the story, far more action and 'acting out' the story.

And it's the pacing and the characters that make Potter 'better', in it's own way, than LotR. There's no characters in Tolkien for kids to 'relate' to, no characters in Tolkein who face issues like those kids do. The Potter books main reason for success, I think, is because so many kids relate to being a little kid who's picked on, like Harry, and then *love* the idea of finding out they're a powerful 'wizard' who can get back at the people who have tortured them, like Potter does to Dudley.

[Grig]

I've seen several full reviews at www.aintitcoolnews.com. From the sounds of it it is not too gory for a 10 year old, but everyone has said it is very emotionaly intense. Parts that are truey frightening and parts that will bring grown men to cry.

I plan on taking my wife to see it, just the two of us, before deciding about the kids.

[Die Zaubertuba]

I must have been 8 when I first read The Hobbit and immediately thereafter tackled LOTR. LOTR was a bit heavy for me in the first reading--I loved it, but I missed a lot. I must have read it at least three more times over the years. I just finished it again--and the Silmarillion as well.

I did just read the first HP book, and I have to agree with the posts that say it's not really fair to compare the two. It WOULD be fair, however, to compare the Potter books with Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia--which also run rings around it.

I really don't think HP is bad reading, but it is shallower then C.S. Lewis, which is by comparison much more accessible to younger children than LOTR.

...of course I'm not going to discourage my kids from reading any of these when they get a little older--my first one's only 7 weeks old... :)

[Carry_Okie]

I tend to agree with most of what you apparently regard as snobbish. There is so much great literature for children that we don't waste our time with the likes of Rowling.

[RightOnline]

"The wizard Saruman, a scholar and originally a good man, is corrupted by the ring. He starts out studying its history and eventually becomes obsessed with having it. In the end he is ruined, done in by the conceit that only he is wise enough to direct its powers toward the proper ends."

I say, without the slightest hint of sarcasm or tongue in cheek, that this is a perfect description of your typical Democratic legislator.

[billbears]

HEY!!! How did you pull that one off? I am extremely jealous!! I've already told them at work don't expect anything out of me on the 19th because if there is a theater showing it at midnight on the morning of the 19th I will be there

[HELLRAISER II]

The Lords of the Ring is a much better story & I'm sure it will make a better movie, but Harry Potter is no more likely to cause Satanic rituals or Witch Craft than The Lords of the Ring, neither will there just stories.

[Dominic Harr]

You underestimate your children.

I think you missed some of my post.

My 10 year old daughter *did* love the Hobbit. She'e enjoying the LotR, which we just started. She just likes HP more, because she can 'relate' to Hermione. She thinks Hermione is the greatest character she's ever read.

It's really a personal preference thing. She's not a hard-core 'fantasy' person, like I am, she tends to like stories about human relationships best.

I think you're simply mis-understanding.

My 4 year old son just won't sit still longer than about 20 minutes. I read to him most nights, but Dr. Suess and 'Berenstein Bears'. He loves it, but he's one of those little boys who just hits the ground running about 6 a.m. and doesn't slow down until you tie him down to a bed that night. He doesn't have the patience to stick with a longer book yet.

But he'll love the LotR when he gets a little older, I'm certain. He's just like I was, in love with swords and warriors and wizards and all that. He just wants to *play* warriors, not read about warriors!

When we were reading the Hobbit, he was half-listening during the part where the Trolls capture Bilbo and the Dwarves, and he immediately jumped up and 'attacked' me with his toy sword, calling out 'die evil troll'!

When he's older, tho, I bet he loves LotR, D&D, Conan, and the all that just like I did. The greatest day in his life was last Sept when we went to the Texas Renaisance Festival. He just couldn't get over it, he thought he'd finally found heaven!

[hobbes1]

S a r u m a n of Many C o l o r s !!

[ican'tbelieveit]

Actually, you want to start CS Lewis's books with the Magician's Nephew.... the largely forgotten first book in his series. It is similar to the Hobbit, but it gives a fantastic and most entertaining history to the whole series. Some of the later books get long and dark, but they seem to follow the themes of Tolkein's books.

And in regards to Tolkeins books getting better every time, oh yes. I am reading them to my kids now, probably the 3rd or 4th time I have read them. I have forgotten so much of it. But it does make you think. My son cannot understand why I cry while reading during certain passages......they are so rich.

[js1138]

There's no characters in Tolkien for kids to 'relate' to, no characters in Tolkein who face issues like those kids do. The Potter books main reason for success, I think, is because so many kids relate to being a little kid who's picked on, like Harry, and then *love* the idea of finding out they're a powerful 'wizard' who can get back at the people who have tortured them, like Potter does to Dudley

We've crossed swords on Microsoft, but I'm with you on this one.

I feel sorry for kids who grow up in households where parents, teachers and older siblings act as guardians of what is worthy. I did, and it has taken decades to get around to the classics. As a child I was too busy rebelling against the forced judgement of parents and teachers.

I suppose that is why I prefer Dahl's characters and Harry Potter. I just enjoy them. No literature intended.

[No.6]

"True infrared vision (not night vision as some would define it), which most non-human races have, can easily detect invisible creatures."

That's silly, the ROYGBIV normal spectrum of light is bent by the 'magic' but infrared isn't? Bzzt, try again. Now if you have some beastie in your RPG whose primary sense isn't sight but hearing, like a really big bat for example, yon ring doesn't do much good.

Back on topic, LoTR was written for Tolkein's nephew who was if memory serves somewhere in the 10-14 age range. I read it at age 13 (and since it popped up, I read the Narnia stuff at age 10).

[Texas2step]

"More of a 'Stephen King'."

Don't even compare Rowling with Stephen King. IMHO, Stephen King is one of the most under-rated literary geniuses of our time. Primarily because of the genre he has chosen to write.

Yes, he has written a few books that I do not care for. However, he has written many books that I did not care for the plot but couldn't put the darn book down.

His character development and use of setting, etc. is simply unbelieveable and probably unparalleled in the last quarter of the 20th century.

[BlueHorseShoe]

Do read these books. And Billthedrill gave you great advice so do what he says! ;^D

[Dominic Harr]

I really don't think HP is bad reading, but it is shallower then C.S. Lewis, which is by comparison much more accessible to younger children than LOTR.

I would agree with that statement, mostly.

Altho I think in one way, Potter is superior to Lewis.

You sound like me, a hard-core fantasy/swords and sworcery fan. I read LotR in 6th grade, and just ate it up. I loved and played waaay to much D&D. Read the Conan books, Piers Anthony, all that.

But do remember, most people are *not* like us. We absolutely relate to characters who's motivation is to fight great evil. That, to us, is the height of entertainment.

But many people are more like my daughter, or wife, or mother. They enjoy fantasy okay, but don't really 'relate'. They much prefer stories about 'real' people with 'real' problems, problems similar to those that they, themselves, have. Problems that *they* can relate to.

That is where the HP books surpass any of that classic lit, even Lewis. And I think that is the reason for it's success.

All kids absolutely *love* the fantasy of a unhappy, picked-on kid finding out he's a famous and powerful wizard, who then uses his powers to have great adventures and get back at the people who tormented him!

[Capt.YankeeMike]

really? (I have never heard that he stole the story from Wagner, and would that be Wagner the composer?) I heard that Tolkien dreamed it up and wrote under the influence of mescaline......

[BlueHorseShoe]

Have you read The Sillmarillion and, if so, what is your opinion of it? It is the one I haven't read yet.

[Texas2step]

"I plan on taking my wife to see it, just the two of us, before deciding about the kids."

That's my plan as well. However, my wife is not excited about seeing it at all, and I can't wait to see it. In addition, I always take my girls out on dates over the Christmas holidays. My oldest (the 10 year old) wants to see Fellowship of the Ring, or nothing! I'm taking my 8 year old to Monsters, Inc. So, somehow I've got to drag my wife to see Fellowship of the Ring soon after the opening so I can do the date thing with my 10 year old.

Then, if we do decide it's not appropriate for her, she'll be crushed.

[Anitius Severinus Boethius]

LoTR, the early form of what became LoTR anyway, was written in serial form for Christopher Tolkien, the Professors youngest son, while he was serving in the RAF in WWII stationed in South Africa. Christopher was in his early twenties if I recall correctly.

[Petronski]

Stephen King is one of the most under-rated literary geniuses of our time.

tee hee hee