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Air Turbulence May Be Factor in Jetliner Crash, Officials Say
New York Times ^ | 11/14/01 | SHERRI DAY

Posted on 11/16/2001 1:12:39 PM PST by kattracks

Investigators said today that wake turbulence, or an air disturbance from a nearby aircraft, could have been a factor in the crash of American Airlines Flight 587, which broke apart shortly after taking off from Kennedy International Airport on Monday and plunged into a residential neighborhood.

The Airbus A-300, bound from New York to Santo Domingo, appears to have taken off from Kennedy Airport less than the standard two minutes after a Japan Airlines Boeing 747 jetliner took off, officials said.

Investigators said one of the plane's pilots could be heard on the cockpit voice recorder making comments about a "wake encounter." That could have been the Japan Airlines flight, which was four miles away, or about 800 feet higher and to the northwest of Flight 587, farther apart than they are required to be by aviation procedure.

Today's analysis of the air traffic control tower's radar data seemed to show that air turbulence could have been a factor, officials from the National Transportation Safety Board said. Although they are looking closely at that possibility, officials cautioned that the investigation was continuing and that no probable cause of the crash had been ruled in or out.

"We do not know if this really contributed in any way to the actual accident," Marion C. Blakey, chairwoman of the N.T.S.B. said at a news conference this evening. "But we are looking at this very closely."

Ms. Blakey initially said today that the American Airlines flight departed two minutes and 20 seconds after the Japan Airlines flight, but she later said, "We believe that in fact it was one minute and 45 seconds."

Ms. Blakey also said investigators were making "good progress" on the recovery of wreckage from the crash site. Both of the plane's engines are at Kennedy Airport, where they will be analyzed and later sent to Tulsa, Okla., for complete deconstruction. The plane's vertical tail fin was found in Jamaica Bay and is at Floyd Bennett Field in Queens. Preliminary analysis showed that there was no evidence that an outside object struck the vertical stabilizer, Ms. Blakey said. Investigators have also retrieved the plane's rudder, wings, nose and two black boxes.

Officials found the cockpit voice recorder on Monday and are using it to determine what went on inside the aircraft. The plane's second black box, the flight data recorder, was located on Tuesday. That recorder tracks an airplane's mechanical operations and will be compared with the cockpit voice recorder to gain a more accurate idea of what caused the incident, officials said.

George W. Black, a spokesman for the N.T.S.B., said today that the transcription of data from the second box had suffered a setback. A module on the box was damaged and had to be sliced open to recover the data, Mr. Black said. The N.T.S.B. sent the recorder to its manufacturer, which was able to recover the data.

"We have had the manufacturer repair the problem and we are reading out the data as we speak in Washington," Ms. Blakey said. "We hope we will have good information for you very shortly on the specific technical characteristics of the flight."

This evening, investigators were still trying to figure out why the Flight 587's vertical tail fin and rudder broke off in flight and landed in Jamaica Bay, while the main portion of the plane fell into a beachside Queens neighborhood in the Rockaways, just three minutes after the plane took off.

Mr. Black said such a break had happened only a few times before, in at least one case, during a trial of a B-52 bomber.

"There have been tail section fractures before over the years, but most of them were a long time ago." Mr. Black said. "There's certainly nothing in our database like this."

While N.T.S.B. officials said they have not ruled any cause for the crash of Flight 587 in or out, the preliminary evidence does not appear to point to a terrorist act or an explosion. The National Transportation Safety Board is still the lead agency on the crash. If criminal intent were found, the Federal Bureau of Investigation would take over, officials said. On Tuesday, Barry W. Mawn, special agent in charge of the F.B.I.'s New York office, said the agency had already begun to take some evidence from the site as a precautionary measure.

None of the 260 people on board the flight survived, officials said. Five other people who lived in Belle Harbor, the neighborhood in Queens where the plane crashed, are missing and are presumed dead, officials said.

Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani said on Tuesday that 262 bodies had been recovered. This afternoon he said that figure remained unchanged, a fact that he said was encouraging because there had been some worry that as many as 10 people on the ground were missing.

The mayor also urged families of the victims to take advantage of the grief and counseling services at the Jacob K. Javits Convention Center in Manhattan, which include gathering specimens of DNA to aid in the identification of victims' bodies and helping families to obtain visas to the Dominican Republic to bury the dead. Most of the families have registered at the site, but he encouraged those who had not come forward to do so.

After visiting both Belle Harbor and Washington Heights on Tuesday, the mayor said he wanted to bring the two communities together for a joint memorial service. Washington Heights, a neighborhood in northern Manhattan that was home to many of the crash victims, has the densest population of Dominicans in the city. Belle Harbor, a predominately white neighborhood, is also a community in mourning, as at least 75 of its residents were firefighters, police officers or civilian workers who were killed at the World Trade Center as a result of the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11.

"They are communities that have great deal in common," Mr. Giuliani said. "They share a great faith in God. They have a very strong reliance on family. They have very strong connections to each other, and they have a very very strong work ethic. These two communities are much more similar than they are different, and they share something else now and that is massive and disproportionate loss."

Meanwhile, at a news conference outside of the Javits Center this afternoon, community leaders from Washington Heights asked the federal government to grant amnesty for Dominican immigrants who are afraid to come forward to identify their loved ones' remains because they are living illegally in the United States.

"There's a lot of illegal immigrants here that have lost relatives, that have lost families, and they're torn," said Fernando Mateo, president of the New York State Federation of Taxi Drivers, which lost six of its members in the crash. "They don't want to come forward and identify their dead wives, their husbands, their parents, only because they're not here legally. They fear that if they say who they are, they're going to be eventually deported."

Mr. Mateo said six immediate family members of Monday's crash victims had approached him with this problem so far, but he feared that dozens more were in the same situation.

On Tuesday, Senator Charles E. Schumer said he had received a commitment from the Justice Department to expedite visas for people who want to travel from the Dominican Republic to New York to attend funerals. Mr. Mateo said that offer should also be extended to illegal aliens in New York who want to travel to the Dominican Republic to bury the dead. After doing so, they should be allowed to re-enter the United States, Mr. Mateo said.


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1 posted on 11/16/2001 1:12:40 PM PST by kattracks
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To: kattracks
Air Turbulence May Be Factor in Jetliner Crash, Officials Say

Yea Right, more likley OBL friends are the real factor in this crash.

2 posted on 11/16/2001 1:12:43 PM PST by KQQL
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To: kattracks
Today's analysis of the air traffic control tower's radar data seemed to show that air turbulence could have been a factor

There's air turbulence every day. Why doesn't air turbulence cause crashes like this every day? I have a feeling there are some other factors.

3 posted on 11/16/2001 1:12:43 PM PST by samtheman
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To: samtheman
the fix is in, they are going to lie again.
4 posted on 11/16/2001 1:12:44 PM PST by KQQL
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To: KQQL
the fix is in, they are going to lie again.

They showed 2nd black box "damaged" on TV this morning, so data can not be read. If the black box gets damaged from the fall from 1000 feet the only way it was "damaged" could be by explosion.

The fix is in they are already lying.

5 posted on 11/16/2001 1:12:46 PM PST by Anticommie
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To: kattracks
Air Turbulence...???

They are really trying to spin it now. Do they really expect us to believe that???

6 posted on 11/16/2001 1:12:48 PM PST by chainsaw
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To: chainsaw
They are really trying to spin it now. Do they really expect us to believe that???

They've gotten better at their lying BS and they've gotten the pilots on board with them...

The spin began with the PILOT right before the plane went down mentioning turbulence on the cockpit voice recorder, that's how effective the NTSB spin machine is now...they must have threatened the pilots family on the radio to get him to say something about "turbulence" instead of "terrorists" in the planes' last minute.

7 posted on 11/16/2001 1:12:51 PM PST by John H K
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To: kattracks
I thought the "black boxes " were supposedly beefed up to withstand crashes. AND how does air turbulence remove a rudder section without major damage to the frame?

Boy I smell it from here.

8 posted on 11/16/2001 1:12:51 PM PST by chadsworth
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To: chadsworth
I thought the "black boxes " were supposedly beefed up to withstand crashes

The black box was fine. the interface for getting the data out easily was damaged, meaning you couldn't simply just plug it in and get the data. They sent it to the manufacturer and got the data out.

9 posted on 11/16/2001 1:12:52 PM PST by John H K
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To: John H K
Thanks - makes sense

Now if the "truth " will just be told. Whatever the story is will be shaped to protect the travelers attitude toward flying.

10 posted on 11/16/2001 1:12:54 PM PST by chadsworth
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To: kattracks
Do you know if this one (Flight 587) is on a bump list yet?
11 posted on 11/16/2001 1:12:55 PM PST by Nita Nupress
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To: chadsworth
No, the story will be the most logical cause of the crash based on avaliable evidence.
12 posted on 11/16/2001 1:12:55 PM PST by John H K
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To: kattracks
That could have been the Japan Airlines flight, which was four miles away, or about 800 feet higher.

This is an obvious red herring. Wake vortices sink and spread outward from the path of the plane that generates them (although wind will affect it).

Both planes were in a climb profile, typically at thousands of feet per minute. If there was only 800 feet difference in altitude at four miles separation, the AA flight would have beeen well above the actual path taken by the JA flight.

However, there is a possibility that the either flight leveled out briefly during climbout. The standard departure from Newark requires that a plane not exceed a certain altitude without further clearance, to avoid conflict with incoming traffic. I don't have access to SIDS for JFK, so I don't know it is the same there.

Perhaps we will see the actual path and altitude, as the information is publicly available from http://www.flightexplorer.com/.

13 posted on 11/16/2001 1:12:56 PM PST by justlurking
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To: John H K
Well- congratulations on having faith in the reports. I respectfully disagree.

The past history of reports in the past have shown them to be unreliable and I personally don't feel comfortable that the truth will be told. Just my opinion.

14 posted on 11/16/2001 1:12:56 PM PST by chadsworth
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To: kattracks
anyone have an idea if, or when, they release transcripts of the VDR?
15 posted on 11/16/2001 1:12:56 PM PST by demsux
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To: John H K
The black box was fine. the interface for getting the data out easily was damaged, meaning you couldn't simply just plug it in and get the data. They sent it to the manufacturer and got the data out.

This doesn't match the report at the NTSB press conference today. What is your source for your assertion that the "black box was fine," and the "interface was damaged"? How is data extracted from a flight data recorder? Tell us.

16 posted on 11/16/2001 1:12:57 PM PST by Map Kernow
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To: justlurking
This is an obvious red herring. Wake vortices sink and spread outward from the path of the plane that generates them (although wind will affect it).

This latest scenario to attempt to vindicate the apparent "Holy Grail" of a "mechanical failure" explanation for Fl. 587 apparently derives from a comment one of the pilots made on the voice recorder before the crash. I'd like to know what the exact words were. I'd also like to know if a pilot would normally open the engine throttles full out, the way these pilots allegedly did or tried to do, in response to such turbulence. I don't claim to be a pilot, but I've been in a plane going through turbulence many times before, and I don't ever recall the pilot trying to "gun it" through the bumps.

17 posted on 11/16/2001 1:13:05 PM PST by Map Kernow
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To: kattracks; All
Has anyone brought up the subject of terrorism using directional EMP weapons? I don't have time now to do a good search for a refresher on the symptoms of an EMP-attacked plane, but I did have this in my files:

TERRORIST THREATS TO THE UNITED STATES

Excerpt:

An electromagnetic pulse (EMP) attack could incapacitate power grids, communications, computer systems, and even electronic infrastructure that makes modern society possible. Terrorists will also build or acquire radio frequency weapons and use them for nonnuclear devices to selectively damage crucial parts of the United States' electronic infrastructure.

For example, a radio frequency weapon detonated on Wall Street could erase electronic business records and cause billions of dollars worth of damage to the U.S. economy, and, in fact, bring it to a halt, or a relatively small radio frequency weapon built from readily available technology could be used by terrorists parked at the end of the airport runway to debilitate airplanes taking off or landing.


18 posted on 11/16/2001 1:13:06 PM PST by Nita Nupress
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To: Map Kernow
Well, perhaps more accurately, the casing is damaged meaning the interface is damaged, but the recorder itself is fine....they got the data off the FDR today.

A lot of weird mechanical or structural crap has downed or damaged airplanes.

19 posted on 11/16/2001 1:13:06 PM PST by John H K
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To: Nita Nupress
You forgot the most important tool in your box!

A fresh roll of reynolds wrap!

Magic-pulse weapons and secret death rays are useless without it!~

20 posted on 11/16/2001 1:13:10 PM PST by PSYCHO-FREEP
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