Investigators Find Signs Birdstrike May Have Caused Crash of Flight 587

Wall Street Journal ^ | November 13, 2001 | SCOTT MCCARTNEY

[Freedom'sWorthIt]

"He (Howard Safire, former NYC police commissioner) said with 800, it boiled down in the end to a political decision about what the outcome of the investigation would be. And that it had been a struggle between the FBI and the NTSB."

Thanks for that report. Did not see it. Is there any further question that TWA800 was an investigation controlled to produce a desired outcome? (similar to almost all the "investigations" which occurred during the Clinoton Reign of Terror???)

Reason enough for sane people to question anything coming out of the mouths of the people investigating this crash.

President Bush - please - charge someone to see to it that the TRUTH and ONLY THE TRUTH is discovered and reported.

WE CAN HANDLE THE TRUTH!

Don't follow the Clinton clones who say we can't!

By the way - if it is a flock of birds that caused the crash - so be it. Surely that would mean the engine turbines would show signs of bird bleechhh all over its internal parts, correct?

[Howlin]

As for leaving FR, there are plenty, if not a majority of us here who can maintain our scepticism of the "mainstream" and the Government, while still recognizing the conspiracy orgies for what they are. I am just as conservative as the next guy, but that doesn't mean I can't be skeptical of the nihilistic, cynical skepticism that often breaks out here.

I'm right with ya!

[LTCJ]

Folks, one comment regarding the tail coming off: a rotor burst would not do that directly. The FOD zone from a high speed turbine is restricted to an area within about 10-15 degrees of the plane of rotation. Anything within that zone has a good chance of looking like swiss cheese but the vertical stab is not a candidate on an A300. Airloads after departed flight is the most likely "natural" cause.

[concerned about politics]

A second U.S. official confirmed that there were "some reports that something might happen in connection" with Veterans Day.

Here

[Jhensy]

And if you believe this, then you believe in pink unicorns.

What? They're not real? YOU'RE LYING! YOU'RE LYING!

[catpuppy]

Nice photos, pr. I once saw a fighter aircraft that had been hit by one bird near the wing root in a honeycomb metal fairing. As opposed to your airliner, this fighter was doing about 480k groundspeed. Although the hole caused by the birdstrike was about the same size as those shown in your photograph, the hole was round and smooth edged, speed being the reason for the differences.

[RichGuy]

Bird Strikes and other FOD problems are actually quite serious. One or more birds going into an engine can easily shut it down. It can even seize the engine thereby causing the centrifugal force to pull the engine off the wing. At that point, if you are early in the take-off, survival becomes a problem.

In the Air Force, each base has a BASH (Bird Aircraft Strike Hazard) committee. If the base is in an area with nesting or migratory bird problems, this is a serious issue. Also it is more of an issue if the base happens to fly single engine aircraft at all. Since airports are mostly involved in multi-engine take-offs it is less likely to be a problem. Two issues are needed to cause a problem here: a twin engine aircraft and either a flock of birds taking out both engines or the engine causing control surface damage as it breaks up or comes off the plane. An inexperienced crew could also contribute to the problem.

I realize it is standard to think of all problems as being a part of some conspiracy. However, during the bird migration season at an airport on a marsh, it may well be an accident.

[texasbluebell]

Be sure to take a look at the link in post #300. (And thanks for those photos.)

[captain11]

Bird Strikes and other FOD problems are actually quite serious.

Apparently so.

[TightSqueeze]

We will make no distinction between birds and the nations that harbor them.

I like it, how about… We will make no distinction between birds and the harbors that nourish them.

[Lion's Cub]

Indexing

[concerned about politics]

U.S. intelligence agencies received a warning that terrorists were planning an attack timed to Nov. 11 but so far do not believe yesterday's airliner crash was part of an attack. BWAaaaaaaa

[Lumberjack]

mil-spec chicken (un-frozen, with feathers,feet head and legs) shot out of a steam powered cannon to velocities of 500 miles an hour

I would pay good money to get my hands on one of those cannons!

Who would be safe with me, Lumberjack, roaming the neighborhood with a MilSpec Chicken Chucker Mk I? Criminals beware!

[captain11]

In the Air Force, each base has a BASH (Bird Aircraft Strike Hazard) committee.

Info on BASH.

[texasbluebell]

"He (Howard Safir, former NYC police commissioner) said with 800, it boiled down in the end to a political decision about what the outcome of the investigation would be. And that it had been a struggle between the FBI and the NTSB."

And the look on Safir's face said he wanted to say so much more! Btw, I could be wrong, I don't think he meant to imply that it was about politics per se, but just the politics involved in a business decision of any sort and with the FBI winning the toss as I think they did, then it came down to who they were protecting and that was the guy in the WH back then...

[captain11]

Birds are a serious problem for aircraft. However, I'm far from convinced. We should know a lot more about that one hour ground delay for engine repair, prior to takeoff.

[discostu]

Problem is a seagull with a couple of nuts in its gut (which they've been known to eat, seagulls will eat just about anything you throw at them) would do more damage to an engine (or an airframe) than 1 bullet. Not to mention that at takeoff speed a plane will travel through the view section of a 12x scope so fast as to make the scope pretty much useless (I know they're big, but takeoff speed is pretty high).

[Orual]

FOD

I'm sticking with this explanation.

[concerned about politics]

A second U.S. official confirmed that there were "some reports that something might happen in connection" with Veterans Day.

However, the official said it was "something that was noted," but the information was not specific enough to be viewed as "actionable" intelligence — information that would require taking additional security measures.

As for yesterday's airline crash, the official echoed other administration aides who said there is no evidence so far to indicate that the American Airlines flight was sabotaged or bombed.

Terrorist are just joking, we all know it was a bird!

[ScreamingFist]

"I would pay good money to get my hands on one of those cannons!"

Yes, me too. Unfortunately it's directly connected to the Lockheeds steam plant, that's where they develop the pressure AND the volume.

"Lockheed formerly used two different devices to propel the chickens at the test windows: a long-barreled, 60mm high-velocity air cannon, and a multi-barreled MIRF gun (Multiple Independent Rapid Fire), to simulate clusterflock encounters. Different angles of deflection and velocities were used to simulate a plethora of scenarios for landings, take-offs, climbing to cruise altitude, and in-flight meals.

While Lockheed found the test results invaluable in their aim to provide impact-resistant glass for aircraft, they found that the use of chickens presented them with several problems. First, video and eye-witness monitoring of the testing -- particularly when the MIRF was used -- was degraded by the resulting 'feather blizzard', cutting visibility to near zero. Second, public relations became increasingly tense, as protesters from PETA, the Audubon Society, the ASPCA, and KFC began an escalated protest phase outside of Lockheed test facilities."