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To: Elsie
I know that there is a body of people out there who feel the way you do about the Old Testament of the Bible.  I respectfully disagree.

There is a part of the Old Testament that did die with Christ on the cross.  That portion was the ceremonial portion dealing with sacrificial services which pointed to a future sacrifice of the Lamb of God.  When Christ died on the cross the most holy place in the temple was opened by an unseen hand, wrending the curtain from the top to the bottom.  This signified that "the sacrifice" had been fulfilled.

The covenant that you keep refering too was the convenant (agreement) between God and man that He would purchase our souls back from Satan.  Christ, by living a perfect life, then dying on the cross did just that.  Thus the convenant was fulfilled.  Sacrificial ceremonies were therefore no longer needed.

God says that He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.  Why would he nullify the accounts of creation, the Sabbath, the rest of the Ten Commandments and countless other important aspects of the Old Testament?

If I'm not mistaken, the Old and New Testament titles were probably a fabrication of the Biblical schollars during the King James era.  Perhaps you can point to a different derivitave.  But it's my opinion that when you start chopping up the Bible, respecting some parts and dismissing others, you've made a grave mistake.

You quoted:

NIV Hebrews 8:6-13
 6.  But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
 7.  For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

Are you going to sit there and tell me you take this literally?  This is a metaphor.  Of course the ministry of Jesus is better than anything that came before.  But reading more into this is state that you accept that God made a mistake with the first covenant.  The God I serve doesn't make mistakes.

50 posted on 11/12/2001 10:13:25 AM PST by DoughtyOne
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To: DoughtyOne

There is a part of the Old Testament that did die with Christ on the cross.  That portion was the ceremonial portion dealing with sacrificial services which pointed to a future sacrifice of the Lamb of God. When Christ died on the cross the most holy place in the temple was opened by an unseen hand, wrending the curtain from the top to the bottom.  This signified that "the sacrifice" had been fulfilled.

The covenant that you keep refering too was the convenant (agreement) between God and man that He would purchase our souls back from Satan.  Christ, by living a perfect life, then dying on the cross did just that.  Thus the convenant was fulfilled.  Sacrificial ceremonies were therefore no longer needed.


John 1: 29  The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
 

The covenant that you keep refering too was the convenant (agreement) between God and man that He would purchase our souls back from Satan.  Christ, by living a perfect life, then dying on the cross did just that.  Thus the convenant was fulfilled.  Sacrificial ceremonies were therefore no longer needed.


Genesis 17
 
 
 1.  When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty ; walk before me and be blameless.
 2.  I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers."
 3.  Abram fell facedown, and God said to him,
 4.  "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations.
 5.  No longer will you be called Abram ; your name will be Abraham,  for I have made you a father of many nations.
 6.  I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you.
 7.  I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.
 8.  The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."
 9.  Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come.
 10. 
This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
 11.  You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.
 12.  For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner--those who are not your offspring.
 13.  Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.
 14.  Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."
 
But what does Paul say in Romans, Chapter 2?
 23.  You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?
 24.  As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."
 25.  Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised.
 26.  If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?
 27.  The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the  written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
 28.  A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.
 29.  No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.
 
And here, in Romans 4........
 6.  David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
 7.  "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
 8.  Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."
 9.  Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness.
 10.  Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before?
It was not after, but before!
 11.  And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.
 12.  And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. 
 13.  It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
 14.  For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless,
 15.  because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
 16.  Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.
 

Galatians 2:3

Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek.


 

 

If I'm not mistaken, the Old and New Testament titles were probably a fabrication of the Biblical schollars during the King James era.  Perhaps you can point to a different derivitave.  But it's my opinion that when you start chopping up the Bible, respecting some parts and dismissing others, you've made a grave mistake.


If I post the WHOLE chapter or book, MEGO occurs in the viewers: My Eyes Glaze Over.  If someone wants to look at it in context, they can do it quite easily enough.  On the OPPOSITE end of the spectrum are those who give their OPINION and then post hardly anything to support it.


You quoted:

NIV Hebrews 8:6-13
 6.  But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
 7.  For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

Are you going to sit there and tell me you take this literally?  This is a metaphor.  Of course the ministry of Jesus is better than anything that came before.  But reading more into this is state that you accept that God made a mistake with the first covenant.  The God I serve doesn't make mistakes.


Any other bible scholars out there agree with the above statement?


75 posted on 11/13/2001 1:29:53 AM PST by Elsie
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To: DoughtyOne

 

 

the ceremonial portion?




Deuteronomy 5
1. Moses summoned all Israel and said: Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them.
(Commandments 1 thru 10 go here.......)
22. These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.
 
 
2 Corinthians 3
3. You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4. Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God.
5. Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God.
6. He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant-- not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7. Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was,
8. will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?
9. If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!
10. For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory.
11. And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
12. Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold.
13. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away.
14. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.
15. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
16. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
 
 
 
Galatians 1
6. I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--
7. which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
9. As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
 
 
Galatians 5
1. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.
3. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.
4. You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
5. But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope.
6. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
7. You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth?
8. That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you.
9. "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough."
10. I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be.
11. Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished.
12. As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
13. You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature ; rather, serve one another in love.
14. The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
15. If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
16. So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
17. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.
18. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.


 


76 posted on 11/13/2001 1:32:01 AM PST by Elsie
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To: DoughtyOne
bttt
128 posted on 12/29/2001 12:07:17 AM PST by timestax
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To: DoughtyOne
bttt
137 posted on 12/29/2001 8:56:43 AM PST by timestax
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