"This Is A New Kind of War" is President Bush's Get Out of Jail Free Card

Schwartzkopf told us that 'Snake Eaters' don't win wars. I've brought this up a few times here on the forum for discussion since the world was turned upside down on 9/11. Despite all you great ret. Spec. Ops. guys who have tried to say Schwartzkopf was 'yesterday's army' I respectfully disagree.

Like Ike warning about the Military-Industrial complex .... General S. was telling us the plain truth. Perhaps this new kind of war will prove to be successful once we establish massive forward bases in Afghanistan and from there, strike out ACROSS and THROUGHOUT the Middle East with terrible and sure .... Swift Death.

Perhaps we SHALL see (someday) Gratifying headlines from all points announcing the mysterious cropping up of groups of very dead terr cells even through Europe. Thus signaling the re-emergence of a brighter day, finally, for the Western World.

But it is absolutely imperitive that we take first things first. We are not going to take even a corner of Afgahanistan for establisment of a massive, massive forward base of operations going at this as we now are. A real war on terrorism cannot be fought unless we have total control of some forward base of operations some where near the M.E. If not Afgahanistan then perhaps half the coast of Pakistan. Regardless, in order to insure this we must have a REAL war Against the Taliban and other, new fighters now coming from far and wide. IF not to establish a base then merely because destroying the Taliban is what we said we were going to do. The US must start sticking to it's word as a FIRST step toward defeating Islamist world wide.

Unless we can get Schwartzkopf to come out of retirement or 'miracle of miracles' there's another Schwartzkopf hiding just under the joint chiefs level ...to fight an actual war with hundreds of thousands of infantry and thousands of tanks, Bush will continue to lose this war.

I doubt that there ARE any new Schwartzkopfs. Clintoon decimated the General Staff. Thus the laying of the 'Get Out of Jail Free Card'. The excuse to prosecute a Viet Nam style police action and keep the news cameras completely out of it. Thus never allowing proof of the ineffectiveness of such a losing propositonal excuse for a war.

It won't work. This policy, already plainly evident in this so called war, will strenghthen and embolden the Islamist terrs world wide and we are guaranteed massive Islamist strikes here at home. If the American people are not moral enough to insist on a real war when nothing else will do .... the Islamists will do it for us. And then we'll really be playing 'catch-up'. Same ole same ole.

The implication was that since the Taleban have no such backing, we can win by spec ops. I don't believe this wholly.

Spetznaz (sp?) worked out of heavily militarized in-country areas. Namely, areas controlled by a regular army.

YES!! I agree 100%. The little-known story is that Spetznaz were *winning* the war, until we sent Afghans Stingers.

You are right, mercy is right, and the crowd saying this-is-different or have-patience or trust-the-guys-in-charge are not right. The flaw in the current operation is obvious and simple, so it deserves to be noted: We cannot win if we dont have a major presence in Afghanistan, either by proxy (alliance with natice Afghan forces) or by ourselves (and this means tens of thousands of US troops). The reasons this is so is by now obvious: First, we have poor intelligence on the ground, and we are not getting any better at it as long as we stay at 10,000 feet; we have 0% chance of getting Bin Laden without close intel. Second, the Taliban forces are not heavy forces, they are men with rifles, held together by their enthicity and ideology; bombs dont change that. These men are "bomb resistent" and will have to be killed or captured, and since they are living in the cities and hiding with civilians, unless we bomb cities or capture cities, this will not happen.

The idea that this has to take years is bunk. We won the Gulf War in 6 weeks; not a matter of geography (although that helped) it was a matter of force disposition and creating conditions for victory. The conditions for victory over Taliban are a lot simpler than assumed. saddam had half a million troops, Taliban has only 45,000, and these forces have almost no heavy armor/mobility so they can easily be taken on. Since most are on front lines, few are holding down cities. We don't need to control the country - we only need to control (or have friends control) the major cities and towns, so that organized resistent Government can be replaced. The rest will follow. With a comination of a large presense to hold down a fortified in-country position and special ops to go anywhere to defeat opposition, we will win. A proposed scenario:

1. Bomb all Taliban positions. Coordinate with NA to take Mose-Sharif and Kabul. Bomb the heck out of all forces found, especially in countryside. This will cause forces to dig in, and drive them into cities. At the same time, seal the Paki border that is resupplying their ammo and oil.

2. Drop in 15,000-20,000 troops in Kandahar area. Can do the same in the north if we want but may not be necessary if the NA forces can do the job alone. Surrounding cities and leaving no escape for forces by capturing it and killing or detaining any hostile forces. Find a "friend" to rule the city. There are 5 major cities to take: Kabul, Herat, Kandahar, Jalalabad, and Mose-e-Sharif. How long would it take us to capture Kandahar, if we dropped in 20,000 forces? A few days to a few weeks, depending on how aggressive we want to go in to sweep the city clean. The faster the better.

3. With cities taken, the Taliban has the mountains and countryside. No problem. In fact, if we do it right, our bombing will drive Taliban forces *into* the cities where surround and capure can take them. In other words, airpower and urban warfare are complementary and together could take out most of Taliban armed forces. It leaves us ready to set up a new Govt.

4. With a fortified base near Kandahar and Kabul (Bagram), use spec ops and air power to go after forces hiding out. If any Taliban want to take on our regular Army forces at our fortified bases, no problem - they need target practice.

5. They will probably try unconventional means, eg terrorism to go after us. No problem. been there, done that. Bin Laden is the Taliban, so we are back to finding cave hideouts. With in-country presence, we are not tied to any external diplomacy, just the diplomacy of finding Afghan friends who will help us find and kill terrorists. I think million-dollar bribes are a much better deal than Billions in foreign aid to Pakistan.

6. In the meantime, teach the Afghans how horrible the terrorists really are and how backwards their beliefs, religion, and political views are. Make the country come to hate the Taliban and Bin Laden as much as we do through our humanitarian acts, education, support for moderate/rational govt leaders, propaganda etc. That will be the best and Final Victory in the country.

So mercy, Shermy, I think you are right.

That makes some good sense militarily. We need some bases of ops from which to do the neessary. We need the safe enlaves. That means serious commitment of ground forces. Looks like the Brits are ready. But what about those massing volunteers from the North West frontier armed with rifles, swords and deadly commitment? They hate us, they have always hated the Brits, and they are serious! I am conerned about the strategy here. Right now we seem to have achieved a bigger enemy base. We are losing the propaganda war. It's probably one we can never win. But I also worry when I hear the Pentagon tell us that the Taliban may be poisoning the food supplies going into Afghanistan. I don't put anything beyond them but it does not appear to be true. I understand the need or secrecy but my toleration for this kind of self-destrutive lie...IF it is a lie...is zero. This is a war we have got to win. It is one we can win. But there may be better ways to do it than the current strategy. But with no debate allowed I get even more dismayed about our resolve to unite in this vital struggle.One thing Winston Churchill understood was that in a total war you have to have the people with you. He did not just expect them to follow him blindly. He put aside partisanship and build a coalition government of the best people from wherever he could find them. He put aside his pet poliies because he knew the people bearing the brunt of the war needed support. Rationing and public services were among his priorities. We don't need rationing at this time but if we are in for the long haul then the burden will have to be seen to all fairly. No more corporate bail-outs while they are laying of thousands. No more worry about Bayer over the needs for people to get the drugs they need. we need the governemnet to take charge - not strip the constitution.

Maybe we should ask those in the military right now what they think. Remember, many are still waiting to be deployed and read the news and listen to negatives being spewed by the media. Those in the forces that I am in contact with have confidence in their superiors and in Bush, something they haven't had in a long time. They know the options, some even know a few of the plans and are eagerly awaiting to show the terrorists what justice is all about. We are on the outside looking in, there are no Christiana Amanpours giving us her versions of how it is or how she wants to tell us. Everything we hear and see is conjecture and poor opinions, at best. Instead of being impatient here, there are other ways we can be productive around our own cities, like giving blood and setting up groups to mail packages or service the families left behind. Hours and days drag when we are in front of our televisions and computers trying to digest all the news and getting mixed signals depending on which station we are watching or what site is for or against this administration. I am no different than Mercy but I have reconciled myself for the long haul.

No. We need to use every weapon in our arsenal to overcome these bastards. To start with use tactical nuclear weapons, especially on the caves where OBL and his ilk hang out. Tell the rest of the world to just stay out of it, as we are very likely taking out an enemy of theirs as well. Or better yet tell them to go f**k themselves, if they don't like it.

We need to kill these people in the hundreds of thousands to give them something to think about for the next fifty years until another creep like OBL crawls out of the wood work.

To field a force big enough to take them out on the battle field, where they are heavily fortified, will call for re-implementing the draft, which will turn off 50% of our citizens.

Even my own daughter told me today that if we get into a war and they tried to draft her two sons, she would take them to Canada to avoid the draft. When I told her I would personally drive to Canada and bring them home, she hung up on me.

It's my belief that we will never again be able to draft our young men to fight in a war.

That being the case we need a president with the balls of a Harry Truman, who would use nuclear weapons.

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