FBI Considers Torture As Suspects Stay Silent

The Times (UK) ^ | 10-22-2001 | Damian Whitworth

[blam]

MONDAY OCTOBER 22 2001

FBI considers torture as suspects stay silent

FROM DAMIAN WHITWORTH IN WASHINGTON

AMERICAN investigators are considering resorting to harsher interrogation techniques, including torture, after facing a wall of silence from jailed suspected members of Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaeda network, according to a report yesterday. More than 150 people who were picked up after September 11 remain in custody, with four men the focus of particularly intense scrutiny. But investigators have found the usual methods have failed to persuade any of them to talk.

Options being weighed include “truth” drugs, pressure tactics and extraditing the suspects to countries whose security services are more used to employing a heavy-handed approach during interrogations.

“We’re into this thing for 35 days and nobody is talking. Frustration has begun to appear,” a senior FBI official told The Washington Post.

Under US law, evidence extracted using physical pressure or torture is inadmissible in court and interrogators could also face criminal charges for employing such methods. However, investigators suggested that the time might soon come when a truth serum, such as sodium pentothal, would be deemed an acceptable tool for interrogators.

The public pressure for results in the war on terrorism might also persuade the FBI to encourage the countries of suspects to seek their extradition, in the knowledge that they could be given a much rougher reception in jails back home.

One of the four key suspects is Zacarias Moussaoui, a French Moroccan, suspected of being a twentieth hijacker who failed to make it on board the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania. Moussaoui was detained after he acted suspiciously at a Minnesota flying school, requesting lessons in how to steer a plane but not how to take off or land. Both Morocco and France are regarded as having harsher interrogation methods than the United States.

The investigators have been disappointed that the usual incentives to break suspects, such as promises of shorter sentences, money, jobs and new lives in the witness protection programme, have failed to break the silence.

“We are known for humanitarian treatment, so basically we are stuck. Usually there is some incentive, some angle to play, what you can do for them. But it could get to that spot where we could go to pressure . . . where we don’t have a choice, and we are probably getting there,” an FBI agent involved in the investigation told the paper.

The other key suspects being held in New York are Mohammed Jaweed Azmath and Ayub Ali Khan, Indians who were caught the day after the attacks travelling with false passports, craft knives such as those used in the hijackings and hair dye. Nabil Almarabh, a Boston taxi driver alleged to have links to al-Qaeda, is also being held. Some legal experts believe that the US Supreme Court, which has a conservative tilt, might be prepared to support curtailing the civil liberties of prisoners in terrorism cases.

However, a warning that torture should be avoided came from Robert Blitzer, a former head of the FBI’s counter-terrorism section. He said that the practice “goes against every grain in my body. Chances are you are going to get the wrong person and risk damage or killing them.”

In all, about 800 people have been rounded up since the attacks, most of whom are expected to be found to be innocent. Investigators believe there could be hundreds of people linked to al-Qaeda living in the US, and the Bush Administration has issued a warning that more attacks are probably being planned.

Newsweek magazine reports today that Mohammed Atta, the suspected ringleader who died in the first plane to hit the World Trade Centre, had been looking into hitting an aircraft carrier. Investigators retracing his movements found that he visited the huge US Navy base at Norfolk, Virginia, in February and April this year.

[infowarrior]

It's you who are "copping out". You seek to change reality. The reality is that INFORMATION EXTRACTED BY TORTURE IS UNRELIABLE! You cannot change that. If it makes you "feel better" to try to extract information from someone by torture then I suppose you also "feel" you have a right to try to do so. I have a right to try to stop you. In that case, it's going to be who shoots the fastest, and the straightest. Got me?

the infowarrior

[Texaggie79]

Amen BRUTHA!

C-ya tomorrow.

[Texaggie79]

Then join up with the Taliban and try to stop them! I'm with America!

[WIMom]

What is really bothering me is the belief that non-citizens have the same rights as we do under the constitution. That is false. There are some rights, but they are not granted the same rights as citizens. Anyone who commits a felony automatically gives up their rights. In this case, those that murdered our citizens have two choices. Talk or not. If they do not talk, then they can get the death penality for conspiracy to commit treason and murder. These terrorists are the scum, the parasites, the maggots that infest our nation and they should be treated accordingly. Personally, I could care less how our government gets information from these dirty b@stards. And anyone here who believes that this will happen to ordinary citizens and that our constitution is in jeopardy better stock up on tin foil.

[infowarrior]

I took an oath, to "protect, preserve, and defend The Constitution", friend (if friend you are). I take that oath seriously. If you think you're with "America" with your stand, you haven't got a clue as to what "America" is. Put that in you "psychic" and smoke it...

the infowarrior

[cardinal4]

Yoko Ono!Now thats going too far!!

[WIMom]

Sorry, I am not scared one bit. I don't have a gas mask, I don't have cipro and I open my mail. If my kids were younger, I'd let them go trick or treating. Why in heavens name would a terrorist go after me? I'm a ordinary person, not some hot shot political figure or a news reader. I have confidence our leaders will do what is right. Now, imagine if Gore was in the White House running the show. Then I'd be wetting my pants.

[VRWC_Member428]

And anybody who thinks that a national income tax will stay in effect after World War II is over should also stock up... oh wait...

In response to your earlier question, the text of the declaration of independence states ALL MEN. Not All Men in America, or All United States Citizens. And since when were people guilty until proven innocent in this country? The FBI has itself said that most of the 800 people arrested are probably innocent and will be released. Should we go ahead and torture them anyway?

[lewislynn]

Our Constitution is just that...OURS....Written to protect AMERICAN CITIZENS from OUR tyrannical government, it's not meant to protect illegal invaders looking to destroy us as a whole anymore than it would protect foreign military invasion forces looking to conquer us.

I'm sure Bin Laden and the Taliban appreciate your support and are lookng forward to your next visit.

[LibWhacker]

Hey NumbNuts ... the quote is "our lives, our FORTUNES, and our sacred honor" NOTHING THERE ABOUT GIVING UP OUR LIBERTY!!

Oops! I really screwed that one up, didn't I?

However, I'm going to stick to my guns on this: No homocidal lunatic has the right to endanger the lives of millions of innocent people. Anyone in that position is no longer even a human being as far as I'm concerned. He's an insect. He can be killed, tortured, murdered, without moral consequence. The only thing that counts, IMHO, is that he be stopped and prevented from committing an atrocity. The lives of millions of innocent people are far more important than any presupposed rights that he may or may not have. And thank God the FBI apparently agrees with me on this!

One last thing, any claimed violation of a lunatic's rights during wartime for the specific purpose of saving millions of innocent lives need not affect the rights of the rest of us later on, after the war is over. If you believe that, you have little faith in the determination or the ability of the American people to reassert their claim to those rights at war's end.

[WIMom]

All men are created equal in the eyes of God. How our country makes laws to govern our nation has been decided upon our elected officials. The Declaration of Independence stated the belief of the citizens of the Colonies that all men were created equal to leave the oppression felt by England. Our Declaration of Independence is not the governing rules by which this country lives. When was the last time the SCOTUS debated issues with the Declaration?

Our country is governed by the Constitution which states We the People of the United States. Non-citizens do not have the same rights as citizens. The have the right to legal counsel (main right) and a couple others that I can not think of right now because it's 3 am here.

I don't want to see anyone tortured, but in war, sometimes the rules are changed. And of those 800, the ones that not guilty should be deported to their home country if they are not citizens. Or would you rather have them move in next door to you? The terrorist bill has an end date of 4 years. The income tax theft is exactly that.

[VRWC_Member428]

After World War II, the US Military hung several people who were in the German military for violations of the Geneva Convention. Fine, the Constitution doesn't apply to illegal aliens. But the Geneva Convention governs the rules for war. And even though during World War II we knew that the Germans and the Japanese were violating the Geneva Convention, we didn't return tit for tat with the German and Japanese POWs here in the states. We followed the Geneva Convention because we did not want to become like them.

[Texasforever]

But the Geneva Convention governs the rules for war.

That is precisely why we did not declare war.

[VRWC_Member428]

Part I Article 2

In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peace time, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.

Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, 75 U.N.T.S. 135, entered into force Oct. 21, 1950.

Part I Article 3
In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(b) Taking of hostages;

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

2. The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for

---

All I'm saying is that I"m against torture. It's immoral, and it goes against what this nation says it stands for (both Constitutionally, and in so much that we are a member of the Geneva Convention) However, once these people have been proven guilty of their crimes, I have no problem with the death penalty being invoked. But torture is still not an option.

[biffalobull]

Here's a vote for the torture method. I could make some suggestions on methods...but I doubt they need my help.

What happens to our people if they are captured, and the word is out what we did to their prisoners?

[Alma 2616]

WI, I'm not clever at HTML but if I was, I'd put up a big picture of the WTC with the left hand tower up in flames and the right hand tower just about to be hit by the passenger-jet-turned-bomb. And coming out of most every window are thought-balloons. The thought balloons all say:

"Why in heavens name would a terrorist go after me? I'm a ordinary person, not some hot shot political figure or a news reader."

And above them of course is the droning voiceover. "The situation is under control. The other tower has a little fire, that's all. Remain at your desks. Send your faxes. Check your FReepmail."

You are probably a very nice person, but you and some of the other people on this thread have no concept that evil exists. The acts of 9/11 are as remote as Pearl Harbor to you, aren't they? I KNEW this would happen because they've been doing their best to avoid reminding us that there are real innocent civilian bodies burnt, broken, and crushed under that all that concrete dust and all the bent steel girders. The enemy is the same everywhere, guided by the same Adversary. You are so anxious to believe that you are not his enemy, but he isn't particularly worried about your ability to deny reality or some ignorant peacenik leftist lawyer who wants to give him his "rights" and exempt him from torture. (He'd love to be tortured anyway. It's what they live for.) He's out to kill you in any way he can. You can pray for his soul, you can wish he Understood How Unoffensive You Are...it won't change his implacable desire to crush you and your nation.

Alma 2616 Scripture Verse of the Day 1 Nephi 22:22-26

[RJayneJ]

Quote of the Day by Don Joe

[blondee123]

i wrote the congresscritters, if you're not from their state & can't vote for them, they kindly reply with "with the amount of emails we get in our office, if you are a resident of my state, please resubmit your email with your full name & address, otherwise we are unable to read or respond to your email." good one, they're still playing politics on capitol hill.

[Alma 2616]

Do you realize how LIBERAL you sound on this thread? So very global village. If you truly defend our country, then please accept that there are more relevent enemy forces here inside our country. It is your duty to stand between your loved home and the enemy; you don't say, "Oh, because you're already IN my loved home I guess you get a pass."

In the course of the investigations we will get credible evidence that prisoner alpha and prisoner delta know something about another weapon of mass destruction. (So far, four have definitely been used against us, and the evidence is pretty clear that a fifth and possibly a sixth are well underway.) We can spin things out and have a big ol' morale-boosting OJ-trial-revisted fest, or we can take alpha and delta into the room, shine the lights on them, and let our experts work.

You bring up images of witchcraft trials. Surely you know that our experts today will not have to resort to anything so messy or dubious.

Alma 2616 Scripture of the Day 1 Nephi 18-26

Especially this: "Wherefore, he will preserve the righteous by his power, even if it so be that the fulness of his wrath must come, and the righteous be preserved, even unto the destruction of their enemies by fire. Wherefore, the righteous need not fear; for thus saith the prophet, they shall be saved, even if it so be as by fire." (1 Ne 22:18)