Posted on 10/18/2001 7:25:25 AM PDT by Eala
Larry Ellison is promoting a new National ID Card based on Oracle software. He'll give the database engine away free to show his good spirit (but maintenance and upgrades will not be free.)
Sample of Larry Ellison's new National ID Card
Larry Ellison is promoting a new National ID Card based on Oracle software. He'll give the database engine away free to show his good spirit (but maintenance and upgrades will not be free.)
Here's a prototype of what his new card might look like. Of course, it would do nothing to combat terrorism, but it would help the government and corporations keep closer tabs on innocent people in the USA.
Turns out Jefferson may have gotten in backwards. The price of excessive vigilance is liberty.
More ironic than funny: Ellison's family took its name (not that long ago) from Ellis Island. He wants his card to be "optional" for citizens who don't mind being interrogated and searched when they travel, but mandatory for immigrants.
Has it been over a year since you last donated to the Electronic Frontier Foundation? We fight stuff like Larry's card.
Once again you completely miss my point. You stated:
1 - if I have 50 different "printing" locations versus one, that means security problems are 50 times as much
2 - if I have 50 different formats for what I am printing but useing as a valid "ID", then I have 50 different formats for the bad guys to choose from instead of one.
I correctly pointed out that using one system as opposed to 50 will not deter or mitigate fraud; indeed, one card makes an easy target for forgers.
Are you just argueing to argue? sheesh...
No, I argue to point out that your logic is tortuous, all in support of a scheme to steal my rights so that your fear might be assuaged. Sadly for you, your feelings do not trump my liberties - if you're scared to walk around that's your problem. And one I'm not obligated to solve, at that.
ROFL. Some people are gluttons for punishment.
Man you are slow.. It has been here for years and you are just now acknowledging it.
"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know, that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion."~~ Carl Sagan
;-)
In your limited "chicken little" way of thinkgin mind only ....Limited? You're the one that refuses to acknowledge that it was a failure to use the current laws that allowed and kept the five that you claim would have been stopped by an internal passport scheme in this country. You're the one who believes that the federal government will never abuse this internal passport when it has been demonstrated (indeed, admitted to by yourself) that they have abused virtually every recent expansion of their power, and that the historical record is littered with governments doing the same.
You logically can [claim that one is both against databases and for them for foreigners] if you have followed the thread at all, i.e. the "database" that I am not necessarily for is the "database" that the thread is mostly upset about, the database for the national ID citizen card holders. That is the constitutional question, if there is one .... but trying to think like you tin foil guys gives me a headache so let me go back to your personal confusion ....You have never answered just how that database is going to be effective without including all 280 million of us citizens in it. I and others have explained that once all the forgers have to concentrate on is one design, spoofing a non-database-enhanced system is ridiculously easy, ESPECIALLY given the group of incompetents that let the terrorist who claimed he was from a non-existant country into this one will be the MOST-EXPERIENCED link in your scheme.
Uh, no, you don't ....This was answered before, but for completeness' sake, I'll answer it again. If a driver's license can be successfully forged, complete with "fake" pictures, thumbprints and signatures, it is no more difficult to do the same to a national ID. Indeed, because the stakes will be higher, and only ONE form needs to be copied, the quality of the forgery will inevitably be so good as to be completely indistinguishable, even by a stand-alone computer check for the "forgery-resistant" elements, from the real thing.If you have a national ID that is issued to you as a citizen and you are the picture on the ID, and maybe we can even have a signature or thumbprint or both ... all can be matched at the check in without "going to" any database.
There is so much illogic in this paragraph and lack of a grasp of the whole problem that we are discussing, I don't know where to startAs explained before (and will undoubtedly be explained again and again until you and your kind realizes it), the focus of forgery will turn from 50 "almost rights" (which depends on the lack of exposure to the 47-49 that the agent does not regularily see to work) to one "completely indistinguishable from the real thing".1 - how do they now do it? They check a gov't ID, we are talking about a "better" "standarized" ID only
2 - your assumption that a database needs to be checked for each ID holder is totally devoid of any discussion so far and has no basic in fact here.
3 - "creaky, bloated database "??? I assume you are new to technology? or just biased against it? ;-)
4 - "not even dreamable" - again, the purpose of having an ID, that has a valid picture (visual match), signature (visual), thumbprint (local scan match), and checksum digits, would allow all of these features and many others to be used for verification without having to query any database of citizens. A database CAN be verified as a last resort where questions are raised.
Before you go on sputtering about the money supply, the tools to forge the latter to a "completely indistinguishable from the real thing" standard do not generally exist outside the government mint, while the tools to forge an ID to that standard are on the marketplace and available to anyone with enough money. All it requires is exposure to an ID's security features and the introduction of enough benefit to the forger and the forgery market to outweigh the risk to same.
Once that has become apparent, then you will need that database of valid cardholders to verify that the card is a valid one. Since you're deathly afraid of so much as one "false negative" (defined as someone who is a foreigner not being tagged as such), said database will necessarily have to include all 280 million of us citizens as defined as such.
As for the speed of the database, with only the bare minimum that is required to search said database for a mere validation of the card, it won't be as fast as your average credit-card transaction. Remember that you will be searching a bare minimum of 400 million entries, and looking for only the identifying number and a single-byte answer on status (and that's at the very bare minimum). If you want to make it interactive (i.e., put a time/date/location stamp on the non-citizens' portion), that will slow it down a bit more.
Again, you are looking at this whole mess upside down ... go do some travel overseas and see how it works. This isn't really as difficult as you are making it.In the rest of the world, where the government is assumed to have the power to do what it wants unless explicitly and actively prohibited by its Constitution (as an aside, that view gives a new meaning to dead-letter law), my view would be upside-down. Unfortunately for you, this is the United States, where unless it is specifically allowed by the Constitution (or by a complicit majority on the Supreme Court on that narrow issue only, which does not appear to be there now), the government does NOT have any specified power. As you are claiming that there is no solution other than something that is clearly not allowed by the Constitution (a national ID issued to citizens), it is incumbent upon you to make a valid case for amending the Constitution to allow it. Each of your "reasons" have been shot down in turn.
I can't say that I've been in a country that requires an American passport for travel, as my foreign travel has been limited to Canada. That, however, is not supportive of your basic argument that we need to apply the same rules that those countries apply to our citizens to our citizens here, and thus violate the Constitution as currently written (either through blatant violation with a packed Supreme-Court sanction, which you seem to prefer, or through an Amendment, which would make the un-Constitutional, Constitutional, but which appears beyond your reach).
I have grown tired of this statist. All i can say is, I am glad we are not having this discussion face to face........While I grow weary with AgThorn and his kind, continuing to refute them is one of the prices of eternal vigilence, lest they carry the day and manage to live long enough to rue the day we fell silent.
I hear you on the last comment :-)
I completely missed your point because you are out on Pluto somewhere ..
Let's be perfectly clear - today there are 50+ different drivers licenses to pick from, for a terrorist to find his easiest to forge. there is no real standard at all.
Further, some states don't care if you are not a citizen (Tennessee), so there is really no reason to forge if you just get in the country.
HENCE, having one ID, that is intentionally made to be as forge proof as possible, as it is intended to say that you are a citizen and not just designed to give you driving privileges, would be a bigger road block for terrorist.
Your logic would only make sense if today, a terrorist had to have 50+ drivers license ... i.e. it makes no sense at all.
On the contrary, I have never ignored this fact ... what i am also acknowledging is that since you only have to get by ONE individual to get into the country today, since your passport is never checked once in, it is quite easy to find the "weakest link" and come in via that "door" ...
It is YOU that are ignoring this simple flaw in our system today. Anyone that lives in a state with a high degree of illegal immigrants wouldn't miss it.
While I grow weary with AgThorn and his kind, continuing to refute them is one of the prices of eternal vigilence, lest they carry the day and manage to live long enough to rue the day we fell silent.
So let's end it .... I will throw into you tin foil's .... let's all get our ammo refreshed and buy our household generators and hunker down in our Idaho fortress's ...
They'll never get ME to carry any dang national ID! :-)
Just thought I would say that to see what it felt like! Man, I want to go buy some chewing tobacco, now!
As for the remainder of the illegals, the same vigorous enforcement that should have been in place to catch those 5 will prove quite effective in rounding those up. Again, all that requires is the will to exercise Constitutionally-allowed powers, not either a lengthy court battle and a majority of 5 on the Supreme Court or a lengthy legislative battle to get 290 Representatives, 67 Senators and the majorities of 38 states' Legislatures to agree to change the Constitution; all for what will prove to be no more effective against non-citizens, and infinitely more effective against dissident citizens, than what is Constitutionally and legislatively possible now.
[why you "see" a non-existent National ID as more forgery proof] 1 - if I have 50 different "printing" locations versus one, that means security problems are 50 times as much
All the cards will be printed at only one factory, eh? Says who? Your imagination?
2 - if I have 50 different formats for what I am printing but useing as a valid "ID", then I have 50 different formats for the bad guys to choose from instead of one.
Yeah - with only one format to choose from they can concentrate on and perfect their forgery that much more. (This is supposed to be an argument for why a NID card is harder to forge? Get real.)
3 - and since it national security that I have in mind rather than just a "license to drive" maybe that too might be a factor in how forgery proof I design it ..
You're designing it? Says who? Your imagination again, I see?
It is remarkable how much you seem to have concluded about a card which does not exist yet.
Come on Frank, quit being such a Doubting Thomas about every single thing.... takes all the fun out of discoursin' with you.
Yes, I suppose it'd be more "fun" if I just agreed with everything you said no matter how foolhardy.
[real situation is: with National ID gov't would have power to check everyone, citizen or not] No it's not. We need the National ID to show that we are citizens and don't need a passport. ...
Yes, and to do this the government will have to check our ID in certain situations, and to arrogate to itself the power to do so. This is precisely what I was saying.
i.e. our "internal" passport shows we live here and to not expect us to have any other ID. Because we show this, those that don't have one will of course be expected to produce their permit to be here - i.e. their passport.
Very telling: unless I have a National ID Card, I am not considered to have a "permit to be here". Question: When was my Right To Exist, and to Be Here, abolished?
I am just saying that we could use this "system" of a national "I belong here" card to give closer scrutiny to those that don't.
If that is really all you are saying then you obviously need nothing from me (since I do "belong here") and therefore you can get off my back and leave me alone, and we can bid each other adieu.
But obviously that's not enough for you. You want to FORCE me to carry a little card. I'm saying no. (And I'm also saying: mind your own business and get a freakin' life.)
I get it when I travel away, and I don't object since I know it is to make travel safer.
This is another autobiographical statement, in which I have little interest.
[Europe, South America, Asia haven't stopped terrorism like you implied] So, terrorism has to be totally erradicated, removed, gone before you would consider any system to control it to be considered?
My are you slippery. You waxed poetic about how "all of Europe, Asia, and South America" had eradicated terrorism by using National ID card systems (at least, this seems to be what you imagine). Then I called you on it and said essentially, "no they didn't". Now here you are saying "so they have to eradicate terrorism before you'll copy them?"
You can't even stick to one rationale for supporting this thing, can you? You're all over the map here.
I'll say it again: Give it up. You will not convince me that violating the Constitution is a good thing to do. And: I will never submit to a National ID Card. Ever. If this makes you upset, tough. Deal with it.
*sigh* You've made two claims:
1. Your NID Card would not be tied to a database
2. Your NID Card would be as forge proof as possible
As I explained (and Dr. Frank explained in #452), when every forger in the US is concentating on one design someone will nail it dead-on. You advocate a card with a picture, signature and thumbprint, but not one tied to a database. Explain to me again how this will be forge-proof? How is this any less susceptible to fraud then a current ID?
The bottom line is, you've twisted your "logic" so far to defend this NID you're arguing against yourself from one post to the next.
"...in thier right hand or forehead..." sounds like a retnal scan and thumbprint to me!
"...that no one may buy or sell, save he that has the mark..." sounds like a mark that will determine who will and won't be able to participate in the economy.
Both of these, match perfectly with the national ID card scenario. "We are simply talking about national security, getting our economy going again..."
Please explain how these cards will get our economy going again (certainly will help Oracle's economic future though) or ensure national security?
The tattoo-a-citizen-program is a "left lean"! You should be "a bit disturbed", instead of defending the pogram.
So, according to your insinuation, those against tyranny are cave dwellers?
"...just might thwart a bombing there, a crop duster purchase here, etc."
Gee, I wasn't aware that prior to bombing public targets that ID's are checked! And how, specifically, would the ID prevent someone from stealing a crop duster?
"...the public health of this country"
Does this fall under the "general welfare" clause? Or are you suggesting that the natID carriers won't get VD as easily as non-tattooed citizens?
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