Replies

I believe that Protestantism is harmful to the faith of millions myself. By allowing people to be their own popes and make up their own doctrine as they see fit (i.e., God will bend to my will, and not vice-versa), the further one gets from the Reformation, the worse and worse the beliefs of the followers

OK, I'm going to weigh in on this one..."allowing people to be their own popes"? Where do you get that? That's not part of Protestant thought! Make up their own doctrine? Hardly! Do you read your Bible? Or do you wait for the Pope to tell you what it says? God gave you a brain, and He expects you to use it! The only requirement for understanding scripture is having a personal relationship with the Author. You don't get that by rituals, by liturgy, by praying to saints or Mary. You get that by praying to Jesus, and asking Him to forgive your sins and come into your heart. You ask Him to cleanse you and make you a new man (or woman, as the case may be). Jesus said "ye must be born again". That's how you do it. It's scriptural, and it works. Once you have done that, then you can read and understand the Bible, because you have its Author, the Holy spirit, living inside you to lead and guide you into all truth (Jesus' own words).

Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Seventh Day Adventism, Moonies, Mormons, the old Worldwide Church of God, Oneness Pentecostalism, Snake-handling Pentecostalism, Jim Jones, Christadelphianism, Swedenborgianism, and Branch Davidianism are all descendants of the Protestant Reformation, and late ones at that.

Every one of those you named is not a descendant of the Reformation. Just because someone starts a "new" group of followers and claims to use the Bible as their inspiration, it doesn't mean that they are Christian. Every one of those you named are cults, and labeled as such by the main Protestant denominations.

Oh Christ almighty, will you get off this "pray to statues" and "pray to Mary" crap! I mean, this is like Jack Chick 101 stuff.

That's it, use His name in vain, that really establishes your point. As far as the "pray to statues, pray to Mary" stuff, do you deny that Catholics do that? If you do then in addition to being a blasphemer, you are a liar, and you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven doing that stuff.

Go ahead, dishonor Mary by not asking her to pray for you and by not calling her blessed (uh, that one's taken right from the Bible). I'm sure Jesus likes us to not give His Mother the respect she deserves.

Please tell me where in scripture it is commanded that we give extra honor to Mary? Mary is dead, and cannot pray for us anymore, nor can she hear our prayers. God hears our prayers, in the persons of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We are forbidden to pray to any other than the true God. Your idea of respect to Jesus Mother is a cultural construct, not a scriptural one. Jesus never commanded any such thing, and never would.

The whole idea of Christ's redemptive work was so that God and you could have fellowship. Directly. One on one. Without a middleman. Catholicism has placed roadblocks to fellowship with God in the path of it's followers. Catholicism attempts to invalidate the Word of God with traditions of men, and inserts itself between man and God. There is one mediator between God and man, the Man, Jesus Christ.

Now it could get interesting! Thanks.

Becky

I don't know where you've been but welcome.

Excellent posts.

Thanks for defending truth here today. Truth from the holy scriptures rather than human tradition. Any defender of the scriptures is a friend of mine. We are instructed to examine all teachings carefully and only hold fast to that which is good (1 Thes. 1:21), and "he who is spiritual appraises all things" (1 Cor. 2:15). Incidentally...

TO ALL:

Please read what the NASB says in Isa. 8:19,20:

And when they [Israel] say to you, "Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter," should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living? TO THE LAW AND TO THE TESTIMONY! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.

Here are the same two verses from Douay-Rheims:

19 And when they shall say to you: Seek of pythons, and of diviners, who mutter in their enchantments: should not the people seek of their God, for the living of the dead? 20 To the law rather, and to the testimony. And if they speak not according to this word, they shall not have the morning light.

What is the meaning of these verses? Would someone like to paraphrase?

I believe that Protestantism is harmful to the faith of millions myself. By allowing people to be their own popes and make up their own doctrine as they see fit (i.e., God will bend to my will, and not vice-versa), the further one gets from the Reformation, the worse and worse the beliefs of the followers

OK, I'm going to weigh in on this one..."allowing people to be their own popes"? Where do you get that? That's not part of Protestant thought! Make up their own doctrine? Hardly!

Really? The proof is in the pudding. 28,000+ Protestant denominations, ranging from people who believe merely in Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide (most mainstream Protestant groups) to people that believe Jesus was Michael the Archangel (Jehovah's Witnesses) to people that believe there is no Trinity (Jehovah's Witnesses, Oneness Pentecostals) to people that believe we must celebrate the Jewish holidays (the Worldwide Church of God before they changed their ways) to those who believe dancing, rock music, and playing cards damns you to hell (some of the extremely conservative Baptist groups) to those who believe in polygamy (Mormons) to those who believe in living as if in the 16th century (Amish). Each one of those groups was founded by a man or woman. And that man or woman acted as if they were their own Pope, making infallible decrees on doctrine, such as the aforementioned beliefs on the Trinity, Christ's nature and identity, what we need to do to receive salvation, how we are to live, etc. Some of these leaders have even called themselves Prophets (Charles Russell of Jehovah's Witnesses, Mary Baker Eddy of Christian Science, Ellen White of 7th Day Adventists, etc.)

THey may not call themselves Popes, but they sure as heck act like popes. Or even super-popes, prophets, or in some extreme cases, the Son of God or God Himself.

And everytime there is a new split in one of these denominations, with the congregation splitting due to some doctrinal matter, the leaders are acting as their own Popes, with their flock following them. Of course, there are also the non-denominational folks who believe all you need is a Bible, a little privacy, and enough concentration to talk to Jesus. All they have as their own interpretation of the Bible, which 99 times out of 100 is different than another person doing the same thing. Who's wrong? Who's right?

Do you read your Bible?

Not since Thursday, when I finally found a "proof text" for the sacrament of Confirmation in Acts, when Peter and the others laid hands on some of the other followers and conferred the Spirit upon them.

Or do you wait for the Pope to tell you what it says?

Well, much of the Bible is pretty clear, meaning that I can figure out what's going on. However, some of it is not, so while I have my own ideas of what it says, I look to the Pope as the final arbiter on the meaning. I'd rather trust someone to whom Jesus gave the power to bind and loose rather than myself when I'm reading the Bible on a packed train on the way to work. You can call that being sheep-like, but I consider the alternative to be awfully arrogant.

God gave you a brain, and He expects you to use it! The only requirement for understanding scripture is having a personal relationship with the Author.

I disagree. 1 billion people will read the Bible and you can get 1 billion different interpretations. More, considering that people's thinking can change from day to day. This is the problem in the Protestant world. Everyone looks to themselves as the end-all and be-all of dogmatic interpretation. How arrogant.

You don't get that by rituals, by liturgy, by praying to saints or Mary.

Nice way to work in the Jack Chick bullcrap. We were talkign about the Bible. Now you talk about rituals. Those things are not connected. You act as if the Bible is the only thing there is to Christianity. You are comparing apples and oranges; rituals do not by default cause someone to be unable to read the Bible.

And when are you guys gonna get off this "praying to statues and Mary" stuff anyway???? I mean, at this point, anyone who keeps bringing this up is just being a troll. And I'm not going to speed up my progression to arthritis in my hands by wasting another line explaining the difference between asking for a saint or Mary to pray for you vs. actually praying to them.

You get that by praying to Jesus, and asking Him to forgive your sins and come into your heart. You ask Him to cleanse you and make you a new man (or woman, as the case may be). Jesus said "ye must be born again". That's how you do it. It's scriptural, and it works. Once you have done that, then you can read and understand the Bible,

Jesus did not cleanse us, forgive our sins, or sacrifice Himself for us just so that we could read the Bible. Apples and oranges again.

because you have its Author, the Holy spirit, living inside you to lead and guide you into all truth (Jesus' own words).

Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Seventh Day Adventism, Moonies, Mormons, the old Worldwide Church of God, Oneness Pentecostalism, Snake-handling Pentecostalism, Jim Jones, Christadelphianism, Swedenborgianism, and Branch Davidianism are all descendants of the Protestant Reformation, and late ones at that.

Every one of those you named is not a descendant of the Reformation.

Yes they are. Nearly all of the founders of these groups were members of slightly more mainstream sects (Charles Russell of Jehovah's Witnesses was a Congregationalist who became a Millerite a/k/a Adventist, in fact many of the cultic leaders seemed to be Adventists for some reason) and all of them were Protestants of some sort. Think of it as a game of telephone. The further down the line you get, the more the message becomes garbled, twisted, distorted, and lost. From Martin Luther to Mary Baker Eddy or Joseph Smith was about 300-350 years. Over those 300-350 years, doctrine was interpreted and reinterpreted with no final arbiter. Throw in some power plays and megalomania, and a little insanity (Mary Eddy and others) and voila, you've got downright bizarre and in most cases heretical doctrine. You have NOTHING like this in the Catholic Church. This is a Protestant phenomenon All of these people were Protestants who were parts of groups that were a little bit strange, which came from sects that were a little less strange, who themselves were an offshoot of a group a little less strange, etc etc, going right back to Martin Luther. There is a connection, and it was a logical outcome of the Reformation, where there was no final arbiter.

Just because someone starts a "new" group of followers and claims to use the Bible as their inspiration, it doesn't mean that they are Christian.

Nearly every cult leader was a member of a slightly odd but at the time, accepted Protestant group. Don't you get the connection?

Every one of those you named are cults, and labeled as such by the main Protestant denominations.

Yes, and thank goodness for that. But it does not mean that Protestantism is not at fault. Maybe Jehovah's Witnesses are considered a cult, but if you go back up the spiritual family tree, you'll find that the group that gave birth to the group that gave birth to the group that gave birth to the Witnesses or other cults is accepted as Christian.

Oh Christ almighty, will you get off this "pray to statues" and "pray to Mary" crap! I mean, this is like Jack Chick 101 stuff.

That's it, use His name in vain, that really establishes your point.

My bad. I will hit Confession and ask for forgiveness. We are all imperfect.

As far as the "pray to statues, pray to Mary" stuff, do you deny that Catholics do that?

No, I do not. There are some ignorant Catholics that do pray to statues and saints and Mary. And they are sinners and they are wrong, and they are really stupid, because everyone knows a statue is just plaster or wood or marble.

But let's get real, this is not what Protestants are talking about when they blast Catholics. They either a) take these ignorant Catholics and stereotype the whole Church through them, or b) pretend that the Catholic Church teaches as doctrine that we must pray to a statue or worship Mary and the saints (which is what we are really doing by praying to them).

Look, just go read the words of the Hail Mary and explain to me how this is praying TO Mary. Check it out:

Hail Mary,
Found in Lk 1:28

full of grace,
May was filled with grace, was she not?

the Lord is with thee,
Also found in Lk 1:28

blessed are thou among women,
Found in Lk 1:48

and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
I think we can all agree on this one, and I am sure there are myriad verses in the Gospels that call Jesus blessed.

Holy Mary, mother of God,

Jesus was God no? Mary was His mother, no?

pray for us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death, Amen.
OK, and here we ask her to pray FOR US, as I used to do in high school, when we would ask our patron saint to PRAY FOR US.

Call me nuts, but I don't see one instance in this prayer that is prayer TO MARY. I see some verses right out of the Bible, and some that are requests to pray for us. Let's get real.

If you do then in addition to being a blasphemer, you are a liar, and you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven doing that stuff.

Jeez, and you think us "Catlicks" are wrong for saying there is no salvation outside the Church, and here I've got some stranger who's spouting off the Jack Chick 101 slanders of my Church telling me I'll go to hell if I don't do things the way HE wants them done! Sorry, I think I'll listen to Jesus, St. Paul, the Popes, and 2000 years of Church teaching over you.

Go ahead, dishonor Mary by not asking her to pray for you and by not calling her blessed (uh, that one's taken right from the Bible). I'm sure Jesus likes us to not give His Mother the respect she deserves.

Please tell me where in scripture it is commanded that we give extra honor to Mary?

Who said it was "extra" honor. Mary herself says that all will call her blessed in Lk 1:48! You know, Luke, who was inspired by GOD to write his Gospel. Or is the new practice to only consider inspired the verses that help the Protestant argument????

Mary is dead, and cannot pray for us anymore, nor can she hear our prayers.

Whoa, dude, are you a Jehovah's Witness yourself?????? Do you believe in eternal soul sleep or some other garbage like that????? What didn't you get about Jesus saying we would have ETERNAL LIFE in Him and through Him????? I think *YOU* are the one who better crack open the dusty Bible you've apparently stored in your attic, bro.

God hears our prayers, in the persons of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We are forbidden to pray to any other than the true God.

No one is praying to Mary!!!!!!!!! Damnit, why won't you let that bone go! (Why? Because this strawman is all you have.)

Your idea of respect to Jesus Mother is a cultural construct, not a scriptural one.

Better read that Bible! Since apparently you won't, I'll quote it here for you:

Luke 1:48

For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages CALL ME BLESSED.

Jesus never commanded any such thing, and never would.

How did that Commandment go?

Thou shallt honor thy mother and father.

Heck, Jesus Himself even said so in Lk 18:20

You know the Commandments (sounds like he is talking directly to you!), 'You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; HONOR your father and your MOTHER. The whole idea of Christ's redemptive work was so that God and you could have fellowship. Directly. One on one. Without a middleman. Catholicism has placed roadblocks to fellowship with God in the path of it's followers.

You call them roadblocks, we consider them enhancements! You think its all about "Jesus-n-me", where all you have to do is say "Yo Jesus, what's up, how are ya." Catholics believe in weekly fellowship with Christ through the Eucharist, seeking cleansing of our sins through Confession, doing charitable work, asking the saints to pray for us and for our loved ones, etc. These are all Biblical things.

Catholicism attempts to invalidate the Word of God with traditions of men, and inserts itself between man and God. There is one mediator between God and man, the Man, Jesus Christ.

Good thing that I don't consider Mary or the saints or the Pope or a statue my mediator then eh?