The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[nobdysfool]

When Proddies say "MY Bible," it sounds like it were your individual posession rather than the common possession of Christians and the Church's (I use church in its most general sense) gift to you.

OK, since you want to split hairs over word usage, My intent and meaning was "the Bible in my possession", i.e. the one I am holding in my hand, NOT my own personal translation or compilation. Does that make it clear?

And believe it or not, good Catholics pray to God--that's Fahter, Son and Holy Spirit-- morning and night with no priest in attendence

I know that many do. Some don't. I'm glad for the ones that do. I hope it's more than just repetitious "Our Fathers" and "Hail Marys", as they don't really qualify as true prayer, IMHO. Prayer is conversation with God.

Nothing in scripture tells us that the faithful departed are indifferent to our needs just because we cannot see them anymore.

I can find nothing is scripture that tells us that they are concerned with them, either, as they are no longer in this world. I can find nothing in scripture to indicate that we should pray to them, asking them to pray for us, either.

Translated: The Bible, as interpreted by men who have rejected the authority of the Church hiearchy, is the sole rule of faith and nothing not explicitly stated in the Bible is the word of God. The problem I see is that nothing in the New Testament explicitly says this.

The Bible is God's revealed Word, and complete in all matters of faith and Godliness. The convoluted Catholic Church heirarchy is not found in the Bible, nor is its practice of priests and bishops standing between the people and God. Jesus is our High Priest, who ministers before the Throne of God, and it is He who has bought our passage into the Holy of Holies with His own Blood, that we may stand before God's Throne and petition God directly for those things we desire of Him. It is He who we are to confess our sins to, it is He who we are to draw near to in fellowship and worship. I repeat, there is one mediator between God and man, the Man, Jesus Christ. We are all Christ's representatives here on earth. The division of the church into clergy and laity is an artificial division, created by men to maintain and exert control over the masses. The ground is level at the foot of the cross, there everyone is equal.

[eastsider]

World Series baseball is unquestionably different from regular-season play. But what's Johnson going to pitch? Game 6? Then who pitches Game 7? Schilling, after two-days' rest (with only three-days' rest for the nine-inning game he's expected to pitch in Game 4)? Johnson might be willing to sacrifice his career for a ring, but the real question is, is Schilling?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I was very serious. It still seems a contradiction to me.

Becky

[Joyful Wisdom]

Becky, If you agree that the dead can have concern for their living brethern. Would it not be logical to assume that they (i.e.) the dead, may want to pray for us.

I am not implying that the dead can hear our prayers or entreatise, just that they may want to pray for us whether they are in heaven or hell.

[ksen]

I wouldn't waste my time trying to talk to Conservative til I die. That guy has a chip on his shoulder that is visible to the naked eye. I don't believe he gave one bit of substance yesterday, he was just blowing.

I know, but I thought there needed to be a refutation of his argument from a Catholic source posted to the thread of record.

Keep up the good fight. I enjoy reading your posts. Often I will read someone's post and think of a response and, voila!, a number of replies later you, or someone else, makes the response I would have given.

-ksen

[the808bass]

But what's Johnson going to pitch? Game 6?

If Schilling pitches Game 4 like he pitched Game 1 and Game 1 vs. Cards and Game 5 vs. Cards (are you picking up on a pattern?) and Johnson pitches Game 6 like he pitched Game 2, there will be no need for a Game 7. D'backs in 6 (course a week ago, I'd have said Yankees in 5).

[nobdysfool]

"nobdysfool" wasn't exactly being nice either. I'll admit our guy was out of line. "nobdysfool" stepped up to the plate an delivered a huge pile of manure, the likes of which we have been discussing for ages. To even think that his recycled hash was worthy of response was his biggest sin.

Opinions vary.

[Joyful Wisdom]

Oops, left off the Madam.

[SoothingDave]

Re 3226

What does this mean to you?

Purgatory

I. CATHOLIC DOCTRINE

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

.. . . . . . ........... ..............

I think that's what I have been saying.

Temporal Punishment

That temporal punishment is due to sin, even after the sin itself has been pardoned by God, is clearly the teaching of Scripture.

.. . . .. ................ ......

The separation between forgiveness of sins and the temporal punishment due to them is important to understand. Our sins have effects on the world and it would not be a just God who forgave us for robbing a bank while letting us keep the ill gotten money.

Purgatorial Fire

At the Council of Florence, Bessarion argued against the existence of real purgatorial fire, and the Greeks were assured that the Roman Church had never issued any dogmatic decree on tlils subject. In the West the belief in the existence of real fire is common. Augustine in Ps. 37 n. 3, speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P. L., col. 397). Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and he adds "'that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1). Following in the footsteps of Gregory, St. Thomas teaches (IV, dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) that besides the separation of the soul from the sight of God, there is the other punishment from fire. "Una poena damni, in quantum scilicet retardantur a divina visione; alia sensus secundum quod ab igne punientur", and St. Bonaventure not only agrees with St. Thomas but adds (IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1, q. ii) that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life; "Gravior est omni temporali poena. quam modo sustinet anima carni conjuncta". How this fire affects the souls of the departed the Doctors do not know, and in such matters it is well to heed the warning of the Council of Trent when it commands the bishops "to exclude from their preaching difficult and subtle questions which tend not to edification', and from the discussion of which there is no increase either in piety or devotion" (Sess. XXV, "De Purgatorio"). (Catholic Encyclopedia)

------------------------------------------------------------

I am particularly interested in the FIRE and in what I, in my ignorance, read as a not so subtle suggestion to "lets just keep quiet about this".

Enlightenment please.

It is not a suggestion to "keep quiet" about the entire concept of Purgatory, but rather the elements therein. The question of concern is whether the idea of "fire" in Purgatory is really a metaphor or is an actual fire.

We all know the depiction of hell as a place of fire and brimstone, etc, but many think this is a primative conception. Is it not more terrifying if the place of torment is personalized? Like Room 101, the torture of hell may be spiders if you hate them, rats if that is your terror, mothers in law naggind, etc. The question being raised here is if the cleansing "fire" of Purgatory is an actual fire or if it is a reference to to mental pain of having the unclean elements excised from the psyche, an acute awareness of our uncleanliness, etc..

SD

[malakhi]

What were there back in the good old days ... 3, maybe 4 teams? ;o)

The precursor to the NFL, the American Professional Football Association, was formed in 1920 with 14 teams from the Midwest and New York. The champions that first season were the Akron Pros, who finished undefeated. Included in that first season were the Chicago Staleys, later renamed the Chicago Bears.

In 1921, the Association expanded to 22 teams, including the Green Bay Packers. The Packers were organized in 1919, but spent their first two seasons as an independent pro team before joining the NFL. Also in 1921, Staley turned his team over to George Halas. Fritz Pollard of the Akron Pros became the first black head coach. The Staleys won the championship.

In 1922, the Association changed its name to the National Football league. The Staleys became the Bears. 18 teams participated, with Canton winning the championship that year.

In 1923, in a game between the Bears and the Toledo Maroons, Halas of the Bears recovered a Jim Thorpe fumble and returned it for a 98 yard touchdown, a record which stood until 1972. Canton went undefeated again and claimed its second consecutive championship.

In 1925, the league established its first roster limit, at 16 players. Red Grange signed with the Bears. He later left over a contract dispute and joined a rival league, the brief-lived first incarnation of the AFL.

In 1927, to strengthen the financial viability of the league, it was cut from 22 down to 12 teams, including adding Grange's New York Yankees football team from the folded AFL. Grange was injured, and the NY Giants won the championship, with 10 shutouts in 13 games.

In 1929, the Green Bay Packers won their first championship in a 10 team league.

Did you know that prior to 1898, a touchdown was worth 4 points, and a field goal worth 5? The first pro player and team made up entirely of professionals came from Western Pennsylvania. The forward pass was legalized in 1906. In the same year, the Ohio League was racked by a betting scandal and inflated player salaries.

Other trivia:

The first-ever playoff game was in 1932, as the result of a tie in the standings between the Bears and the Portsmouth, OH Spartans. It was played indoors due to bitter cold and a snowstorm, and played on an 80 yard field. The goalposts were moved to the back of the end zone for the game, an innovation that the league adopted the following year for all its games. Boston was awarded a franchise, the Braves, which later became the Boston Redskins.

In 1933, the rules were changed to allow forward passes from anywhere behind the line of scrimmage. Prior to then, a pass had to be from at least 5 yards behind the line. For the first time, the league played in two divisions with a playoff for the championship. Pittsburgh's Art Rooney was awarded a franchise, the Pittsburgh Pirates. David Jones sold the Chicago Cardinals to Charles W. Bidwell, beginning the long and sorry wandering captivity of the Cardinals franchise at the hands of the Bidwell clan.

In 1934, the Portsmouth Spartans were purchased, relocated to Detroit, and renamed the Lions. A prior Detroit franchise named the Panthers had folded some years earlier. The Thanksgiving Day game between the Bears and the Lions was the first nationally broadcast NFL game.

In 1937, the Redskins moved from Boston to Washington D.C.

In 1939, the first televised game, between the Brooklyn Dodgers and the Philadelphia Eagles, for the approximately 1000 sets in New York. Total NFL attendance (for the entire league!) exceeded 1,000,000 for the first time.

In 1940, Art Rooney sold the Pittsburgh franchise and purchased a share of the Eagles. In 1941, Rooney and Bell swapped the Philadelphia franchise for the Pittsburgh team, and renamed them the Steelers. Daniel F. Reeves became co-owner of the Cleveland Rams.

In 1943, league rosters were depleted by the war effort. Helmets became manditory.

In 1944, coaching from the bench was legalized. The Steelers and Eagles fielded a joint team for that season (called the "Steagles" by fans).

In 1946, Reeves was granted permission to relocate the Rams from Cleveland to Los Angeles. The rival All-American Footbal Conference began play. The Browns of the AAFC (along with San Francisco and Baltimore) later merged with the NFL.

In 1948, a player from the Rams painted horns on his helmet, the first modern helmet emblem.

In 1952, Ted Collins sold the New York Yanks' franchise back to the NFL. A new franchise was awarded to a group in Dallas after it purchased the assets of the Yanks, January 24. The new Texans went 1-11, with the owners turning the franchise back to the league in midseason. For the last five games of the season, the commissioner's office operated the Texans as a road team, using Hershey, Pennsylvania, as a home base. At the end of the season the franchise was canceled, the last time an NFL team failed. Also, the Pittsburgh Steelers abandoned the Single-Wing for the T-formation, the last pro team to do so.

In 1956, the NFL Players Association was formed. Grabbing the facemask of a player other than the ballcarrier was made illegal.

In 1960, Dallas and Minnesota were awarded NFL franchises. The Minnesota franchise had played in the fourth incarnation of the AFL before withdrawing.

In 1961, Canton, OH, where the NFL was formed, was selected as the site of the Hall of Fame.

In 1962, facemasking of the ballcarrier was prohibited. The NFL signed a contract with CBS to broadcast all regular-season games. $4.65 Million.

In 1963, Don Shula became head coach of the Colts.

In 1966, the AFL and NFL announced their decision to merge.

[tiki]

Thank you Saint Tiki. Where can I order your book on humility and how you achieved it?

Where in that post did I claim any glory for myself? Hmmmm? The Glory belongs to God!

[malakhi]

I think its because God wants us involved in His work on this earth. God could do all these things without our help, but I think he delights in having His children involved in His work.

Interesting. This is a very Jewish concept. We call it tikkun olam.

[al_c]

Then who pitches Game 7?

Game 7? What makes you think there will be 7? ;o)

[ksen]

Me:That will be the 1,000 years of the Messianic Kingdom here on earth.

vmatt:Dare I ask what proof you have?

Proof for what, that there will be a Messianic Kingdom setup with a 1,000 year lifespan, or that the Messianic Kingdom is the Kingdom of Heaven mentioned in Matthew?

-ksen

[malakhi]

In practice probably not much. But is justification the diference is that gnostics believe flesh is evil in and of itself and only through discipline and denial can one gain knowledge. The ascetics does not hold flesh evil and uses discipling to focus the mind (as a tool) to better understand truth without physical needs or distractions getting in the way.

Thanks, JW.

[SoothingDave]

I hope it's more than just repetitious "Our Fathers" and "Hail Marys", as they don't really qualify as true prayer, IMHO. Prayer is conversation with God.

I'm glad you're not God. Where does Scripture say all repetitious prayer is bad?

I repeat, there is one mediator between God and man, the Man, Jesus Christ.

Uh oh. What do you mean by "the Man, Jesus Christ"?

SD

[RobbyS]

As Theodore Parker said a long time ago, the besetting sin of Protestantism is bibliolotry. It is too easy to read into the Text what you want from it. You speak of the Word of God, meaning a book, hoping to free yourself of the mediation of a priesthood. But you only subject yourself to another, that of Luther and the little Luthers who stand between you and the original Greek. And if you learn the Greek, there stands the impassable barrier of almost two thousand years and the need to divine the words of men long dead. By all means follow the advise of St. Paul to Timothy to "search the Scriptures." But be careful that you do not come to believe that you know what you do not know or to see only the refelction of your own will.

[al_c]

In 1960, Dallas and Minnesota were awarded NFL franchises.

So, in less than 40 years of existence, the Cowboys managed to win 5 championships. It took GB 10 years to win one. How many did the Pack win in 40?

[SoothingDave]

The Steelers and Eagles fielded a joint team for that season (called the "Steagles" by fans).

Hey! That's one of my favorite trivia bits. The Steagles. LOL

(Did you know the Steelers were originally known as the Pirates? And the Pirates were originally the Alleghenies? The Alleghenies shared some players with Philadelphia during one of the wars, and then enticed the player to remain in Pittburgh. Philadelphia claimed foul and called Pittsburgh a bunch of "pirates" and the name stuck.)

(Did you know that in Pittsburgh, "pirates" is pronounced as a one syllable word?)

SD

[malakhi]

So yes us "Proddies" (How I hate that term, no smiley face after this remark)

Do you have any shorthand suggestions on what we can call you, to distinguish you from Catholic Christians? I for one would be happy to use a different word, as long is it doesn't take too long to type.