The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[eastsider]

Steven! Good hearing from you. See my 3716 to al_c. You can't ask the starters to pitch nine innings (which they wouldn't have done if there had been any reliable backup) and come back out of rotation to do the same. No way.

[JHavard]

I guess we have to stop talking about this now. Your views are remarkably gnostic, in placing the source and responsibility for all of our sins in our human bodies. You seem to be saying that only if God had made us only spirit beings then we would not have sin. Then we would be like the angels. Except we forget about Lucifer and the fallen angels. They had no body yet they still had a desire to rule.

These discussions may not convince anyone, but they sure do serve to illuminate our differences. For the record it is our souls which require cleansing in Purgatory, they do not require merely to be separated from our "evil" bodies to be clean.

Since I have never been a spirit, I can not speak as to what sin's a spirit may have to deal with, but God made us human and all the sin's that went with it to cover any sin that a spirit might have, only he made us with a physical body that could be destroyed if we chose the way of the angels that followed Satan,

Pure human souls trapped inside of dirty evil matter, filthy bodies. Is this a common belief among the non-Catholics here? That absent from our bodies we are clean?

This is the belief you promote when you talk of the need of cleansing in Purgatory which is pureley un-scriptural, please read the passages in my last post, it makes it clear that when we are quickened, the sins are no longer present.

Why do you think God gave us a human body with all the pulls and needs, it was to deal with the same problems that he had to deal with in Satan, what other reason could there be?

If this is considered gnostic, then perhaps there are other things we can learn from them.

Please stop spouting philosophy at me and give me scripture, or counter my solid scripture with ones you feel counter it.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I take it from all your references to 1 John, you read it. Isn't it great. Very uplifting. I read it when I feel down.

Becky

[JohnnyM]

"OK, let's say this same "saved" Christian is mad and talking on the phone. He yells out the Lord's name in vain and BANG! is hit by a bus and dies. What happens to him? He dies without repenting his sin. The wages of sin is death."

Good question. The sin is covered by the blood of Jesus. Remember all sins are covered, not just the ones we had committed at the time we accepted Christ into our heart. Once saved, all our sins are covered (past, present, and future), but sin can separate us from communion with God. Ever notice how hard it is to pray or spend time with the Lord when you have un-confessed sin. There is a barrier there. By confessing our sin and asking for forgiveness, we are restoring that communion.

Let's look in numbers for an example of this:
Number 19:1-13, 17-19
"Then the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, "This is the statute of the law which the LORD has commanded, saying, Speak to the sons of Israel that they bring you an unblemished red heifer in which is no defect and on which a yoke has never been placed. "You shall give it to Eleazar the priest, and it shall be brought outside the camp and be slaughtered in his presence. "Next Eleazar the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger and sprinkle some of its blood toward the front of the tent of meeting seven times. "Then the heifer shall be burned in his sight; its hide and its flesh and its blood, with its refuse, shall be burned. "The priest shall take cedar wood and hyssop and scarlet material and cast it into the midst of the burning heifer. "The priest shall then wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward come into the camp, but the priest shall be unclean until evening. "The one who burns it shall also wash his clothes in water and bathe his body in water, and shall be unclean until evening. "Now a man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer and deposit them outside the camp in a clean place, and the congregation of the sons of Israel shall keep it as water to remove impurity; it is purification from sin. "The one who gathers the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes and be unclean until evening; and it shall be a perpetual statute to the sons of Israel and to the alien who sojourns among them. "The one who touches the corpse of any person shall be unclean for seven days. "That one shall purify himself from uncleanness with the water on the third day and on the seventh day, and then he will be clean; but if he does not purify himself on the third day and on the seventh day, he will not be clean. Anyone who touches a corpse, the body of a man who has died, and does not purify himself, defiles the tabernacle of the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from Israel. Because the water for impurity was not sprinkled on him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is still on him. ....Then for the unclean person they shall take some of the ashes of the burnt purification from sin and flowing water shall be added to them in a vessel. A clean person shall take hyssop and dip it in the water, and sprinkle it on the tent and on all the furnishings and on the persons who were there, and on the one who touched the bone or the one slain or the one dying naturally or the grave. Then the clean person shall sprinkle on the unclean on the third day and on the seventh day; and on the seventh day he shall purify him from uncleanness, and he shall wash his clothes and bathe himself in water and shall be clean by evening.

So here we have the offering of a red heifer. This is a unique offering in that it is sacrificed once, and its ashes are used to purify future sins. This is in direct correlation with our Lord. Since he is the fullfillment of the Law, his atoning for sin can be seen in the red heifer. He was sacrificed once, but his blood covers us for future sins.

JM

[JohnnyM]

yes agreed. It got ugly in here over the weekend.

JM

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

OK, let's say this same "saved" Christian is mad and talking on the phone. He yells out the Lord's name in vain and BANG! is hit by a bus and dies. What happens to him? He dies without repenting his sin. The wages of sin is death

If he is truly "saved" he will suffer loss of rewards, (1 Cor. 3:15) but not loss of salvation.

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I LOL at that one too. Kids are great.

Becky

[ksen]

But you are correct that the shorter more direct version of saying we pray "to" Mary, for example, is valid.

Then perhaps you could tell this to Conservative til i die. He was very emphatic in his arguments that Catholics do not pray to Mary, saints, etc.

-ksen

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

What would you say this is referring too?

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I wouldn't waste my time trying to talk to Conservative til I die. That guy has a chip on his shoulder that is visible to the naked eye. I don't believe he gave one bit of substance yesterday, he was just blowing.

Becky

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Steven! Good hearing from you. See my 3716 to al_c. You can't ask the starters to pitch nine innings (which they wouldn't have done if there had been any reliable backup) and come back out of rotation to do the same. No way.

I would agree if we were talkin' 'bout 162 game regular season. World series different story. This is the lifetime goal for many in baseball. I do believe Randy Johnson would risk his career for a world series ring.

[SoothingDave]

Pure human souls trapped inside of dirty evil matter, filthy bodies. Is this a common belief among the non-Catholics here? That absent from our bodies we are clean?

This is the belief you promote when you talk of the need of cleansing in Purgatory which is pureley un-scriptural,

I'm afraid not. I don't believe nor does the Catholic church teach that our sins somehow stick to our bodies and that our souls are pure and clean. Our souls get dirty through sin and require cleansing to be worthy to stand in God's Presence. I don't know why you got the idea that I said Purgatory means that the body is evil, because I didn't.

please read the passages in my last post, it makes it clear that when we are quickened, the sins are no longer present.

OK.

1 Cor 15:35 But some one will say, How are the dead raised? and with what manner of body do they come?
V-15 Thou foolish one, that which thou thyself sowest is not quickened except it die:

OK. So the body has to die. How does this make me be arguing that the body is "evil" and the soul is "good" but trapped in the evil body?

1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
V-43 it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
V-44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

OK. So the corrupt physical body is buried and raised up will be a new, spiritual, incorruptible body. Fine. now what part of that has me arguing that the body is "evil" and the soul is "good" but trapped in the evil body?

1Cor 13:3 And if I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing.

OK. So valuing the body over doing good deeds or having love is not good. I agree. Now which part of this is arguing, and which part of this is me arguing that the body is all bad and that the pure soul is trapped in this evil body? Which part is me saying that Purgatory is for the human body?

Why do you think God gave us a human body with all the pulls and needs, it was to deal with the same problems that he had to deal with in Satan, what other reason could there be?

I don't have any idea what this means.

If this is considered gnostic, then perhaps there are other things we can learn from them.

Yes, learn how marriage and having children is bad and committing suicide is good. I imagine killing children before they are even born is a great liberation of the pure soul from the evil snare of the human body!

SD

[SoothingDave]

Then perhaps you could tell this to Conservative til i die. He was very emphatic in his arguments that Catholics do not pray to Mary, saints, etc.

If he comes back I will. Consider him scolded for his uncharitble attitude as well.

SD

[Joyful Wisdom]

Madam Becky

Well they do have magic powers if they can pray for you after they are dead. The story of the rich man shows that the dead can do nothing for the living.

Doesn't the story really say that the dead could do something but man being stubborn that if Christ's death doesn't do it, a sign from the dead won't do it.

Also, doesn't the story illustrate that the dead still have concern for their living brethern?

[al_c]

What would you say this is referring too?

I would have to say venial sin. Must be the Catholic in me. ;o)

[the808bass]

OK, let's say this same "saved" Christian is mad and talking on the phone. He yells out the Lord's name in vain and BANG! is hit by a bus and dies. What happens to him? He dies without repenting his sin. The wages of sin is death.

Is his faith still in Christ for His salvation?

If yes, then proceed on to eternal life.

If no, go directly to Hell. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

[dadwags]

#3587
Becky, are you serious, or just trying to start a discussion of the Church's Canonization procedures ? I am not really "up" on the procedures, myself, but the Church affirms that SOME are in Heaven . The procedure does provide for, among other things, an evaluation of the occurance of two(?) miracles occuring due to the intercession of the "candidate" for canonization . Remember, this is an over-simplification .The idea is taht the miracles are a sort of confirmation by God that, yes, that person has made it to heaven .
This is NOT to claim that others are not There

[al_c]

I take it from all your references to 1 John, you read it. Isn't it great. Very uplifting. I read it when I feel down.

I was wondering if you picked up on that. Yes, it's a great read. Very encouraging.

[SoothingDave]

If he is truly "saved" he will suffer loss of rewards, (1 Cor. 3:15) but not loss of salvation.

Good question. The sin is covered by the blood of Jesus. Remember all sins are covered, not just the ones we had committed at the time we accepted Christ into our heart. Once saved, all our sins are covered (past, present, and future), but sin can separate us from communion with God. Ever notice how hard it is to pray or spend time with the Lord when you have un-confessed sin. There is a barrier there. By confessing our sin and asking for forgiveness, we are restoring that communion.

Thank you both. I am interested in hearing Havoc's answer because he always talks about how important it is to obey and avoid sin.

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Also, doesn't the story illustrate that the dead still have concern for their living brethern?

Yes, I believe it does. Think of the torment of being in hell to remember your past life and the ones you love knowing they are heading for the same place you are and not being able to do one thing about it. This story is a picture of hell, and IMO this is one of the saddest, scariest parts about it. I never thought about how bad it would be to have to think about my past bad life and that of loved ones for eternity. Sounds like hell to me.

Becky