Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
So it doesn't do any good if I ask you to join me in praying for the safety of our armed forces tonight. I don't buy it. Speaking of armed forces, I'm off to watch Band of Brothers.
I'll do this, too, although I realize that a Mass has a script...the priest isn't speaking extemporaneously, so how much Mary is mentioned is predetermined. I'll also watch Mother Angelica Live in which she converses normally with her audience...no script per se; probably just an index card with notes. I will report my findings a.s.a.p. Thanks for the assignment...I won't let you down.
(\o/)
./_\.
I'm still holding my breath with anticipation, waiting for you guys do give us some verses that tell us to pray to anyone but God. You can ask me to pray without praying to me, I'm not dead yet.
You know what? I don't really care anymore what you think about Catholics and Catholicism. I can't believe I got sucked in again.
I'll say it again, I have been led ,I believe, by the Holy Spirit, to the Catholic Church. I spent 46 yrs as a Protestant. My mother is a Baptist. My sister is Evangelical, one brother is a Fundamentalist Baptist, one is non-religious but open to belief and the other is an atheist. I've heard every argument in the book.
I didn't join the Catholic Church on a lark, this is the Church and belief God led me to. You believe what you believe for similar reasons, I suppose. Now how do we ever come to agreement? From the very fact that this is the Neverending thread I would say never until the Holy Spirit takes charge.
Amen to that, and I truly believe that God does put us where we fit best, but we still need to be reminded of beliefs we have that contradict the written word, and trying to reason some of the beliefs you have, boggle the minds of most Proddies.Lol Good to see you're still Ok.(^g^)
But they are living, in Christ!!!!!!!!!!!
OK, I'm going to weigh in on this one..."allowing people to be their own popes"? Where do you get that? That's not part of Protestant thought! Make up their own doctrine? Hardly!
Really? The proof is in the pudding. 28,000+ Protestant denominations, ranging from people who believe merely in Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide (most mainstream Protestant groups) to people that believe Jesus was Michael the Archangel (Jehovah's Witnesses) to people that believe there is no Trinity (Jehovah's Witnesses, Oneness Pentecostals) to people that believe we must celebrate the Jewish holidays (the Worldwide Church of God before they changed their ways) to those who believe dancing, rock music, and playing cards damns you to hell (some of the extremely conservative Baptist groups) to those who believe in polygamy (Mormons) to those who believe in living as if in the 16th century (Amish). Each one of those groups was founded by a man or woman. And that man or woman acted as if they were their own Pope, making infallible decrees on doctrine, such as the aforementioned beliefs on the Trinity, Christ's nature and identity, what we need to do to receive salvation, how we are to live, etc. Some of these leaders have even called themselves Prophets (Charles Russell of Jehovah's Witnesses, Mary Baker Eddy of Christian Science, Ellen White of 7th Day Adventists, etc.) THey may not call themselves Popes, but they sure as heck act like popes. Or even super-popes, prophets, or in some extreme cases, the Son of God or God Himself.
OK, so you have demonstrated that you have some knowledge of non-Catholic beliefs, but you make the mistake of lumping them all together, and turning it into an Us (Catholic Church) vs Them (all non-Catholics). While you’re at it, why not include Islam, Buddhism, Confucianism, and others like those too? You are painting with too broad a stroke here. There’s a world of difference between Lutheran and Amish, Baptist and Mormon, Presbyterians and Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Or are you going to deny the false teachings, corruption, and less-than-Christlike conduct of some of your revered Popes over the last 2000 years? I can read history, too. You’re trying to muddy the waters here by making broad, sweeping condemnations of all Protestants, but the Catholic Church is not lily-white either. This particular line is a dead end. You have your mind made up already, and don’t want to be confused with the facts. If you want to debate specifics about a specific denomination, then we can talk.
And everytime there is a new split in one of these denominations, with the congregation splitting due to some doctrinal matter, the leaders are acting as their own Popes, with their flock following them. Of course, there are also the non-denominational folks who believe all you need is a Bible, a little privacy, and enough concentration to talk to Jesus. All they have as their own interpretation of the Bible, which 99 times out of 100 is different than another person doing the same thing. Who's wrong? Who's right?
And, of course, you’ve seen this first hand, and can speak with authority about this. I agree that many times congregations split for less than scriptural reasons, sometimes for very political reasons. I don’t think that’s right, either. I am not defending that form of Protestantism. I have seen that, I have gone through that, and the one thing you left out is that there are always some in those congregations that truly are seeking to walk with the Lord, who live the scriptures, and who are deeply saddened and troubled by these divisions. They tend to stay together, while many time the ones who split off eventually die out, due to further infighting, or to finally seeing through the deception. Your characterization is not complete, nor accurate. You again make sweeping accusations and generalizations.
Do you read your Bible?
Not since Thursday, when I finally found a "proof text" for the sacrament of Confirmation in Acts, when Peter and the others laid hands on some of the other followers and conferred the Spirit upon them.
OK, so for you the Bible is just another reference book? It isn’t for me. I read mine every day, and I ask God to help me understand and apply what I have read. I also ask Him to show me things from His Word that I haven’t seen before. Your reference to Peter and the others laying hands on believers to confer the Spirit on them is actually a reference to the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, with the confirming sign of speaking in tongues. That was never meant to be just another ritual to be performed in the Church, it is something that all believers are to have, to empower them for ministry of the Word. Not the formal ministry or priesthood, but we are all to be witnesses to our Lord in our everyday lives. The Bible says we are all priests.
Or do you wait for the Pope to tell you what it says?
Well, much of the Bible is pretty clear, meaning that I can figure out what's going on. However, some of it is not, so while I have my own ideas of what it says, I look to the Pope as the final arbiter on the meaning. I'd rather trust someone to whom Jesus gave the power to bind and loose rather than myself when I'm reading the Bible on a packed train on the way to work. You can call that being sheep-like, but I consider the alternative to be awfully arrogant.
Jesus gave the power to bind or loose to all believers, not just the Pope. So you think it’s arrogant to read your Bible, ask God to help you understand, and expect Him to do so? And you believe the Pope is infallible? Sure sounds like that’s what you’re saying. I’d say that in reality, you don’t trust your own thinking processes too much, so you let the Pope think the hard thoughts for you. How…Catholic!
God gave you a brain, and He expects you to use it! The only requirement for understanding scripture is having a personal relationship with the Author.
I disagree. 1 billion people will read the Bible and you can get 1 billion different interpretations. More, considering that people's thinking can change from day to day. This is the problem in the Protestant world. Everyone looks to themselves as the end-all and be-all of dogmatic interpretation. How arrogant.
There you go again with your sweeping generalities. You seem to think that answers anything I can say, to just issue a sweeping opinion that goes way beyond what I said. Many, if not most passages in the Bible are pretty clear, and you’re not going to get anywhere near 1 billion different opinions, even from 1 billion people. There are many things in the Bible that are not so easily understood, and without the Holy Spirit living in you, they are hidden. I look to the Lord Jesus as the end-all and be-all of dogmatic and biblical interpretation. In that, my final authority is actually higher than yours.
You don't get that by rituals, by liturgy, by praying to saints or Mary.
Nice way to work in the Jack Chick bullcrap. We were talkign about the Bible. Now you talk about rituals. Those things are not connected. You act as if the Bible is the only thing there is to Christianity. You are comparing apples and oranges; rituals do not by default cause someone to be unable to read the Bible.
Nor do rituals confer any actual benefit to the recipient. And stop with the Jack Chick accusations. This has nothing to do with that. I’m talking about the Bible, too. What do you mean, Catholic rituals are not connected to the Bible? What are they connected to then….the Koran? The Bible is God’s Word, and is one of the central things to Christianity! I never said that a ritual causes someone to not be able to read the Bible. But too many people rely on the rituals and never actually read, pray, or do anything to actually pursue a relationship with God. Most Catholics, and for that matter, many Protestants have no more than a passing acquaintance with Jesus. “Jesus? Oh yeah, nice guy! I’ve heard a lot about Him….worked miracles, walked on water, healed the sick…pretty cool stuff! Don’t really know Him, though…”.
And when are you guys gonna get off this "praying to statues and Mary" stuff anyway???? I mean, at this point, anyone who keeps bringing this up is just being a troll. And I'm not going to speed up my progression to arthritis in my hands by wasting another line explaining the difference between asking for a saint or Mary to pray for you vs. actually praying to them.
About the time you will realize and admit that asking the saints to pray for you is praying TO them! Try as you might to deny it, Catholics do those things. I know. I’ve been there. I’ve seen it done. Prayer is talking to God, and also listening for His voice talking to you. It’s supposed to be a conversation, not a monologue. So, if you ask a saint or Mary to pray for you, you’re talking to them, and in effect, praying to them. You seem to be awfully touchy about that.
You get that by praying to Jesus, and asking Him to forgive your sins and come into your heart. You ask Him to cleanse you and make you a new man (or woman, as the case may be). Jesus said "ye must be born again". That's how you do it. It's scriptural, and it works. Once you have done that, then you can read and understand the Bible, because you have its Author, the Holy spirit, living inside you to lead and guide you into all truth (Jesus' own words.
Jesus did not cleanse us, forgive our sins, or sacrifice Himself for us just so that we could read the Bible. Apples and oranges again.
No, He didn’t do it just so we could read the Bible. But he did those things so the Holy Spirit could live in us, and guide us into all truth, which is to be found in the Bible. I put my sentence back together, which you cut apart to try to make it say something it didn’t. The phrase “read and understand” are to be taken together, not separately. Like “look and see”. I just gave you the way to enter in to Christianity, and you are trying to twist my words, and the main point of that paragraph went right over your head (and heart.
Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Seventh Day Adventism, Moonies, Mormons, the old Worldwide Church of God, Oneness Pentecostalism, Snake-handling Pentecostalism, Jim Jones, Christadelphianism, Swedenborgianism, and Branch Davidianism are all descendants of the Protestant Reformation, and late ones at that.
Every one of those you named is not a descendant of the Reformation.
Yes they are. Nearly all of the founders of these groups were members of slightly more mainstream sects (Charles Russell of Jehovah's Witnesses was a Congregationalist who became a Millerite a/k/a Adventist, in fact many of the cultic leaders seemed to be Adventists for some reason) and all of them were Protestants of some sort. Think of it as a game of telephone. The further down the line you get, the more the message becomes garbled, twisted, distorted, and lost. From Martin Luther to Mary Baker Eddy or Joseph Smith was about 300-350 years. Over those 300-350 years, doctrine was interpreted and reinterpreted with no final arbiter. Throw in some power plays and megalomania, and a little insanity (Mary Eddy and others) and voila, you've got downright bizarre and in most cases heretical doctrine. You have NOTHING like this in the Catholic Church. This is a Protestant phenomenon All of these people were Protestants who were parts of groups that were a little bit strange, which came from sects that were a little less strange, who themselves were an offshoot of a group a little less strange, etc etc, going right back to Martin Luther. There is a connection, and it was a logical outcome of the Reformation, where there was no final arbiter.
Once again you make the sweeping generalizations. If those you have mentioned were at one time associated with mainstream Protestantism, they left it to form their little groups, and in so doing, severed their ties with Protestantism. Don’t lay the errors of those people at the door of Protestants, because that’s not accurate. Those people went off into deception, which is a whole other thing. And, just for the record, Baptists are not Protestants. They had nearly as much against Martin Luther as did Catholicism. You call a Baptist a Protestant, and you’ve got a fight on your hands, spiritually speaking. As for Charles Russell, Mary Baker Eddy, and Joseph Smith, and others like them, they were deceived, and listened to and embraced doctrines of demons, as the scriptures foretold.
Just because someone starts a "new" group of followers and claims to use the Bible as their inspiration, it doesn't mean that they are Christian. Every one of those you named are cults, and labeled as such by the main Protestant denominations.
Nearly every cult leader was a member of a slightly odd but at the time, accepted Protestant group. Don't you get the connection?
You blame Protestantism as a whole rather than the individuals responsible. Not very logical, when you look closely at it.
Every one of those you named are cults, and labeled as such by the main Protestant denominations.
Yes, and thank goodness for that. But it does not mean that Protestantism is not at fault. Maybe Jehovah's Witnesses are considered a cult, but if you go back up the spiritual family tree, you'll find that the group that gave birth to the group that gave birth to the group that gave birth to the Witnesses or other cults is accepted as Christian.
Again, you make the sweeping generalization. That must be your favorite debate tactic. You’re just looking for any and every reason you can find to discredit and denounce the Protestant Reformation. Martin Luther had valid reasons for nailing his theses to the church door. Reasons that the Catholic Church STILL hasn’t addressed.
Oh Christ almighty, will you get off this "pray to statues" and "pray to Mary" crap! I mean, this is like Jack Chick 101 stuff.
That's it, use His name in vain, that really establishes your point.
My bad. I will hit Confession and ask for forgiveness. We are all imperfect.
It was rather damaging to your argument, but since God will forgive you, so will I. You’re correct, we all make mistakes. No lasting damage done.
As far as the "pray to statues, pray to Mary" stuff, do you deny that Catholics do that?
No, I do not. There are some ignorant Catholics that do pray to statues and saints and Mary. And they are sinners and they are wrong, and they are really stupid, because everyone knows a statue is just plaster or wood or marble.
But let's get real, this is not what Protestants are talking about when they blast Catholics. They either a) take these ignorant Catholics and stereotype the whole Church through them, or b) pretend that the Catholic Church teaches as doctrine that we must pray to a statue or worship Mary and the saints (which is what we are really doing by praying to them).
Like you stereotype all Protestants by looking at those who are not even a part of Protestantism, lumping them together with the Episcopalians, Lutherans, Methodists, and then saying, “See? They’re all bad!”
Look, just go read the words of the Hail Mary and explain to me how this is praying TO Mary. Check it out:
Hail Mary, Found in Lk 1:28
Hmmmm….seems you are addressing this to her….
full of grace,
Mary was filled with grace, was she not?
Due to the favor bestowed on her by God, yes.
the Lord is with thee, Also found in Lk 1:28
In the context, self-evident.
blessed are thou among women, Found in Lk 1:48
Quoting scripture, and again, self-evident.
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
I think we can all agree on this one, and I am sure there are myriad verses in the Gospels that call Jesus blessed.
Can’t argue with that. Quite true.
Holy Mary, mother of God,
Jesus was God no? Mary was His mother, no?
True, and true. Here’s where you are actually talking to her, in effect, praying to her, to ask her to do something for you.
pray for us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death, Amen.
OK, and here we ask her to pray FOR US, as I used to do in high school, when we would ask our patron saint to PRAY FOR US. Call me nuts, but I don't see one instance in this prayer that is prayer TO MARY. I see some verses right out of the Bible, and some that are requests to pray for us. Let's get real.
OK, you’re nuts. You are addressing Mary in the style and form of a prayer, quoting the salutation of the angel Gabriel to her when he visited her to inform her of her selection by God to be the vehicle by which His Son would enter the world. You use it as a salutation to her prior to asking her to do something for you. I cannot see the artificial distinction you keep insisting on. You’re praying TO her!
You get real! You’re in denial here!
If you do, then in addition to being a blasphemer, you are a liar, and you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven doing that stuff.
Jeez, and you think us "Catlicks" are wrong for saying there is no salvation outside the Church, and here I've got some stranger who's spouting off the Jack Chick 101 slanders of my Church telling me I'll go to hell if I don't do things the way HE wants them done! Sorry, I think I'll listen to Jesus, St. Paul, the Popes, and 2000 years of Church teaching over you.
No, it’s not me wanting things done my way. Scripture plainly says that those who do such things will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Not my words, those are God’s words, pal.
Go ahead, dishonor Mary by not asking her to pray for you and by not calling her blessed (uh, that one's taken right from the Bible). I'm sure Jesus likes us to not give His Mother the respect she deserves.
Please tell me where in scripture it is commanded that we give extra honor to Mary?
Who said it was "extra" honor. Mary herself says that all will call her blessed in Lk 1:48! You know, Luke, who was inspired by GOD to write his Gospel. Or is the new practice to only consider inspired the verses that help the Protestant argument????
Fine, she was blessed! No argument there. But, it was not a command that we all must do so. Jesus said that anyone who loves father, mother, sons, or daughters more than Him is not worthy of Him. Spending time praying to Mary, asking her to pray for you, and getting all ga-ga over her as though she were any more than you or me is not scriptural. She was just a vessel, nothing more.
Mary is dead, and cannot pray for us anymore, nor can she hear our prayers. God hears our prayers, in the persons of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We are forbidden to pray to any other than the true God.
Whoa, dude, are you a Jehovah's Witness yourself?????? Do you believe in eternal soul sleep or some other garbage like that????? What didn't you get about Jesus saying we would have ETERNAL LIFE in Him and through Him????? I think *YOU* are the one who better crack open the dusty Bible you've apparently stored in your attic, bro.
I never said anything of the kind! Is English a second language for you? We were talking about Mary, and suddenly you’re accusing me of not believing that we receive eternal life in and through Jesus Christ. I have never, ever said anything that would even begin to give the slightest impression that I don’t believe that. My bible is not in my attic “bro”, it’s on my Kitchen table, my coffee table, my nightstand, and right here beside me as I type.
No one is praying to Mary!!!!!!!!! Damnit, why won't you let that bone go! (Why? Because this strawman is all you have.)
Yes, you are!!!!!! And quit swearing, you only hurt your case when you do that. It is not a “strawman”, it is a point which you refuse to concede, because you know it weakens your belief that the Catholic church is the one true church, and the Pope is infallible.
Your idea of respect to Jesus Mother is a cultural construct, not a scriptural one. Jesus never commanded any such thing, and never would.
Better read that Bible! Since apparently you won't, I'll quote it here for you:
Luke 1:48
For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages CALL ME BLESSED.
How did that Commandment go?
Thou shallt honor thy mother and father.
Heck, Jesus Himself even said so in Lk 18:20
You know the Commandments (sounds like he is talking directly to you!), 'You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; HONOR your father and your MOTHER.
I DO honor my father and mother. In my father’s case, it’s his memory, as he passed away 2 years ago. But let’s get one thing straight: Mary was Jesus’ mother, not mine. Doesn’t mean I don’t honor her, as it was a VERY great honor to be the mother of Jesus. But, other than that, she is no different than you or I. Your whole thing of repetitive “Hail Marys” is nothing more than vain, repetitious supertstition. Maybe it’s you who better go back and read that Bible. Your application of Jesus’ words has nothing to do with this.
The whole idea of Christ's redemptive work was so that God and you could have fellowship. Directly. One on one. Without a middleman. Catholicism has placed roadblocks to fellowship with God in the path of it's followers.
You call them roadblocks, we consider them enhancements! You think its all about "Jesus-n-me", where all you have to do is say "Yo Jesus, what's up, how are ya." Catholics believe in weekly fellowship with Christ through the Eucharist, seeking cleansing of our sins through Confession, doing charitable work, asking the saints to pray for us and for our loved ones, etc. These are all Biblical things.
Funny, but how can all that stuff be an enhancement to worship? Is it like you tell the priest “Tell Jesus I’m here”, or “Please ask Him to forgive me, bless me, grant me favor”, etc. My Bible says I have boldness through faith and the finished work of Jesus to approach the Throne of Grace (God’s Throne) myself, directly. I don’t need a priest to do it for me. I don’t talk to Jesus like that, I have some respect, but I can also talk with Him as I would with any dear friend. That’s fellowship! And I do it every day, not just weekly. Jesus is the center of my life, not just what I do on Sunday for an hour or two. And sorry, asking the saints to pray for us and our loved ones IS NOT Biblical!!!!
Catholicism attempts to invalidate the Word of God with traditions of men, and inserts itself between man and God. There is one mediator between God and man, the Man, Jesus Christ.
Good thing that I don't consider Mary or the saints or the Pope or a statue my mediator then eh?
I hope you don’t….I truly hope you don’t, because you’re S.O.L. if you do! .
Wellllllllllllll.........
Faith is unseen. It isn't scientific. I believe God exists, though I have never seen Him. I believe that it is God who gives me the Grace to believe and I believe that it is God who urges me to pray through His Holy Spirit.
No problem here. I agree with you....until you bring Mary into it! The only ones in the closet (Mt. 6:6) are the Father and me.
If, therefore, Honorius is called a heretic, and is anathematized and cast out, it is not for heresy, but for connivance towards heretics. And expressly in this sense was the intention of the Council interpreted by the Emperor Constantine, who was not only present at the Council, but took part in it. In the same sense did St. Leo interpret it, who, having carefully examined the Acts of the Council and conferred with the legates who presided over it, approved them and translated them into Latin. Both Constantine and Leo say that Honorius was condemned, not because he taught error, but because he had favored and strengthened heretics, and had, not stained the Church himself, but suffered it to be distained by others.
THE SUPPOSED FALL OF HONORIUS AND HIS CONDEMNATION
I understand what he means...at least I think I do. He can correct me if I'm wrong. When he calls purgatory a "work," he means as opposed to *grace*. The "purity" which is supposed to result from purgatory is NOT a gift of God (grace), but is something the person achieves by suffering. It is a work as opposed to being something that God simply *gives* you.
Give that man a cigar :) That's part of it
How do you know those people are even in heaven, as apposed to the alternative. You are not supposed to be the judge of that, and not your church either, BTW. Only God is the judge of who gets to heaven. It is very presumptious of you to pray for those to help you ask God, when you don't even realy know where they are.
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