Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
What happened to these saints? Did God just put them back in the tomb to wait for the second coming? Or are they in Heaven but other saints are waiting in the tomb for the second coming?
Romans 8: 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Romans 8: 38-39 For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor poweres, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Now, I know that these verses mean something different to you than they do to me but I believe that all the Saints who have died before us are already in Heaven and so when I ask Mary to pray for me she is very present in the spirit world. She is near her Father, her Son, her God and she is near me. This also tells me that I will not be separated from God whether I am alive or dead and my soul will not be separated from God no matter the circumstances. And if I, a lowly, sinning, mere human will not be separated from God through Jesus then how can I doubt that someone as holy and blessed as Mary could possibly be separated from God, then, now or ever.
Now, because I'm not in a very good mood tonight I'm going to say more than I should and then I'm going to run again.
Never mind.
As far as Mary being physically in the room, no she’s not but I’d sure like to know your reasoning for that assinine remark. If I am not separated from God and she’s not separated from God and no believers in Christ are separated from God then I am with God at all times and also with Mary and the Saints.
Someone has to be in a room with me? Some of your arguments are soooooo ridiculous! <
The part us Proddies don't understand is that if you're in a room with God (metaphor-cly speekeeng), why do you talk to Mary to get her to say something to God. If we're not separated at all from God (which you correctly adduce from the Romans passage), then we can pray with confidence to God.
Only by Protestants who want to believe that we worship Mary.
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No, tiki, I'm not talking about when protestants mention her, I'm talking about when she (more than Christ) is emphasized by catholics, such as on EWTN (still not sure if those are the right call-letters). I really need an answer.
If you need proof, how about if I watch Mother Angelica and keep a tally of how often each (Mary & Jesus) is mentioned? I'd be more than willing to do it. I get a real kick out of watching her. She says some real good things, and she cracks me up sometimes.
Most of my prayer is directed to God but I feel the need to pray more than I possibly can and so I ask the Holy Spirit, Mary and the Saints to pray for my intentions. That's the whole gist of it, there they are, up in Heaven, praising and glorifying God, seeing His face, feeling His Grace, knowing His love and reflecting it all back to God and I see nothing wrong with asking them to pray for me always.
For the same reasons Christians (at least many of them) ask other Christians to pray for them to God. Like Hopefulpilgrim just did for the headache.
If we're not separated at all from God (which you correctly adduce from the Romans passage), then we can pray with confidence to God.
No doubts about this amoungst Catholics.
Iowegian's statements and questions are entirely reasonable. But I can see why you are having trouble answering them.
Yes I know, that's another of those loopholes they have developed that you can drive a fleet of truck through. But if you read the article I linked to, even that doesn't wash in this case.
And you know this how?
Last I checked the only reference to a 2000 year old man I know of is in a fictional Mel Brooks comedy bit. There aren't any people that old around in the world.
Well, how old is Old Reggie?
First of all, I doubt if you really had time to read my posts carefully but whatever.
Second of all, I've never seen Mother Angelica and I don't doubt that she is very devoted to Mary. Do you want me to argue for or against Mother Angelica when I don't know what is in her thoughts? I won't.
I would ask you to go to a Catholic Mass and tell me how many times Mary is mentioned. I could tell you but I'd just get an argument. I defy you to find a church which so completely reverences Jesus.
I understand that EWTN airs a complete Mass so why don't you watch it, listen carefully and come back and tell me how many times Mary is mentioned.
Actually, I had James 5:16 in mind! And I had prayed already.
This reminds me; SoothingDave mentioned 3 questions on Friday morning that he would like to see discussed. One of them was on the providence of God, although I don't recall if it was stated in those terms. It had to do with whether our prayers move God to work in ways that He hadn't planned... Hmmm.....I'll have to try to find it. I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on that, too. ESPECIALLY if you have scriptural statements or illustrations to back up what you say. Questions concerning His providence or involvement or intervention have been on my mind for a long time now...several years, anyway.
Jesus died so that the giant chasm that sin put between us and God could be bridged and give us direct access to God. Why do you then make a false barrier by going to saints or Mary. Cut out the "middle man". Nothing could be more effective that the God's own Son. He is our advocate. And if that doesn't work right away, do as Jesus said and keep asking God. You will get an answer.
I thought I answered them pretty well in the earlier part of the post. Read it again.
Faith is unseen. It isn't scientific. I believe God exists, though I have never seen Him. I believe that it is God who gives me the Grace to believe and I believe that it is God who urges me to pray through His Holy Spirit.
I don't have a "middle man". If I ask Mary or anyone else to pray for me, I am not making them the "middle man".
Exactly, I pray for my intentions, directly to God and then I ask Mary and the Saints to join with me and continue my prayer.
You can only ask them to pray for you, by praying to them, hence the problem. Jesus is a sure thing, stick with Him (unless you would like to explain why someone else would be more effective than Christ himself).
tiki, then we can also give anyone who God has blessed the same honor can't we?
So then it is alright to set up statues and repeat prayers to all those who have been blessed, and doubly so if God himself did the blessing, right?
Judges 5:23 Curse ye Meroz, said the angel of Jehovah. Curse ye bitterly the inhabitants thereof, Because they came not to the help of Jehovah, To the help of Jehovah against the mighty.
Judges 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael be, The wife of Heber the Kenite; Blessed shall she be above women in the tent.
And God blessed Noah and his sons,
And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of God Most High, possessor of heaven and earth. And it came to pass after the death of Abraham, that God blessed Isaac his son.
And the woman bare a son, and called his name Samson: and the child grew, and Jehovah blessed him. And the Spirit of Jehovah began to move him in Mahaneh-dan, between Zorah and Eshtaol.
Lk 11:27 And it came to pass, as he said these things, a certain woman out of the multitude lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the breasts which thou didst suck.
V-28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
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