The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[dadwags]

#3469
Actually, Papal infallibility was pretty much practiced from the earliest times (I'll leave it to the scholars to elaborate with historical references) The actual Definition was in the 19th century ,a DEVELOPMENT of the practice up to then .

[D-fendr]

I think one would be as countless; to try to count millions… Brave?

Hmm, I like "indescribable" better.

[hopefulpilgrim]

I also suggest that you add Catechism of the Catholic Church to your collection of source material. You can also read it online here:

Yes, I use the catechism, too. It's on the newadvent.org website along with the catholic encyclopedia and other documents. Actually I use two other sources that I left out also: A book called "Who's Who in Christianity" (publisher: Routledge) and the Vatican website. So, in all, I'm learning from only one source written by a protestant; all other sources are catholic. So you guys can't group me with the "Chick" crowd!! Thanks.

[hopefulpilgrim]

Titan, do you have a source for your info on the Dark Ages? (If, perchance, you've already answered this question, sorry. I haven't read all the way through the thread yet this evening.)

[hopefulpilgrim]

Thanks for your reply on my inquiry about prayers to Jesus. What is the reason that we hear so little about this type of prayer (to Christ) and so much about the rosary and prayer to Mary? Don't you think one is emphasized a lot more than the other?

One thing that really stands out to me when I watch a show like Mother Angelica Live is how frequently during one show Mary's name is mentioned and she is discussed. The references to Christ are relatively few---I really mean this---I am quite amazed by it as I watch. I don't like that!! I love the Lord very much, and honestly it grieves me to hear someone else receive more attention than Him. Can you understand that? Can you explain why this is? Sincerely, hopefulpilgrim

[hopefulpilgrim]

and ALL:

I have a migraine which is not responding to my medication. It is the sort that would actually keep me home from work tomorrow and I don't want to miss work ($). Would y'all please pray that the Lord might take it away? Thanks. hopefulpilgrim

[hopefulpilgrim]

Tell us, Iowegian, what does the Church teach today that it didn't teach at the beginning ? Ref.,Please. Of course, over the centuries, certain things were defined as they became controversial .the Doctrines were defined to close down arguement .

Yes, and remember I asked if anyone had a list of teachings or dogma with dates on which they became "official." Anyone???

[dadwags]

#3485
Pilgrim, I will try to give a "gut" explanation of the "Mary" phenomenon . I think it has to do with a cultural view of motherhood . we have all heard of the much caricatured "Jewish mother " who has great influence over her son . (Just ask any woman married to a Jewish son). Anyway, there as a hint of her influence in the Gospel according to John . The first miracle worked by Jesus was at the request of His mother. "They have no wine"
Also, events at Guadaloupe, Mexico in 1541 (the miracle portrait) and Lourdes (healings) and Fatima, Portugal("miracle of the sun, witnessed by 40,000) probably serve to get our attention .
Understand, this is my personal opinion .

[hopefulpilgrim]

#3478: WOW !

: (

[Titanites]

You remarked in one of your posts (I can't find which one) about Mary being referred to as Coredemptrix by Catholics. I never saw anyone else address this, so I'll give it a try.

Personally, I don't care much for the term Coredemptrix because of the impression it gives. However, it is a Latin word and it must be remembered that the "co" does not mean "equal to". In Latin it has its roots from "cum" which means "with".

Catholic belief is that "Jesus Christ, as true God and true man, redeems the human family, while Mary as Coredemptrix participates with the Redeemer in his one perfect Sacrifice in a completely subordinate and dependent way. The key word here is "participates" in that which is exclusively true of Jesus Christ."

Coredemptrix does not mean that Mary is an equal to Jesus but refers to her free, active, intimate, and unique participation with her Son in his work of redemption (she persevered with him from his conception to his resurrection). I repeat: her role is subordinate to Jesus' and she herself was redeemed by Jesus. Catholics also believe that all Christians are called to offer their suffering to the Father, as brothers (oh no, not this again) of Christ and members of the Body of Christ. And, therefore, we are also co-redeemers.

Although the concept is Catholic belief, the title of Coredemptrix itself is pretty controversial within the Church, and I don't believe it is even official doctrine.

I took the liberty to paraphrase most of this from several documents but I am not an expert on the subject. Maybe someone more knowledgeable, like dignan3, can shed some light on it if you are interested.

[Titanites]

Titan, do you have a source for your info on the Dark Ages?

It is some info I have on my hard drive, but I got most of it some time ago from one of the online encyclopedias. Encarta or World Book. Some of these give you a free trial period if your interested in looking it up.

[Titanites]

Would y'all please pray that the Lord might take it away?

Will do. My wife also suffers from terrible migraines and I've seen how devastating they can be. She takes Imatrex(sp) for hers, and it has been pretty effective. The oral med doesn't work, just the injection.

[Iowegian]

The actual Definition was in the 19th century...

That's what I thought, then of course, you drive the truck through the giant loophole of "developement". It (Papal infallibility) didn't exist when your early Popes spoke what they called heresy, right? Isn't that convenient.

[JHavard]

#3312 JH, Where do you get the info about Ignatius's Epistles ? Who says which are real and which are frauds ? Is there a website containing this critique ? Inquiring minds want to know .

I love the way you play dumb, as though you have no idea where I found this information, so I will go along with the little game and then you can say,Oh,Oh, there were other studies that came to a different conclusion. Of course, you will finance studies until you get the answer you want, but that only means no one else had enough invested intrest in it to finance another study to dispell your study, or it somehow hans't become avaliable yet.

Here it is anyway, go to "New Advent", go to "I", scroll down to "Ignatius", open, and scroll down to the higlighted heading,
"The Controversary"
scroll to second block paragraph, and read it, here, I'll move the light over so you can read it better, hows that? Ok, here, put on your stronger glasses, and look right here, no not there, over here, see where I'm pointing, see that,
"Hows about that Mr. Fung" Lol

Vedelius gave expression to this latter opinion by publishing at Geneva an edition of the Ignatian letters in which the seven genuine letters are set apart from the five spurious. In the genuine letters he indicated what was regarded as interpolations. The reformer Dallaeus, at Geneva, in 1666, published a work entitled "De scriptis quae sub Dionysii Areop. in which (lib. II)

[the808bass]

Since I can easily do that with the ignorance I see here, I will force myself to read every single post.

One part Master Limbaugh, two parts Madame Streisand.
Now pretend you're in a band. Yes, that's it. My, my aren't we looking...smug...smug.

Hey mama, hey mama
Look at what your little babies all have become
Hey mama hey mama
Don't it ever make you wish you'd been a nun?
Mean and fickle were we weaned on a pickle
Is it in our blood
Rome is cooking, my we're looking smug

[hopefulpilgrim]

Very sorry about your wife. I wouldn't wish them on my worst enemy.....well, maybe on Osama bin Laden!! Imitrex (oral) doesn't help mine either, but I've never had an injection of it. I use Zomig, which usually works...but not tonight. I appreciate your praying.

[Pelayo]

It (Papal infallibility) didn't exist when your early Popes spoke what they called heresy, right? Isn't that convenient.

Name one Pope who taught heresy.

[JHavard]

Pardon me, here is the rest of that quote,

The reformer Dallaeus, at Geneva, in 1666, published a work entitled "De scriptis quae sub Dionysii Areop. et Ignatii Antioch. nominibus circumferuntur", in which (lib. II) he called into question the authenticity of all seven letters.

[tiki]

First of all, you forgot to mention the mysteries which are the most vital part of the Rosary.

The Joyful Mysteries.

The Annunciation., when the angel Gabriel speaks to Mary and she accepts God‘s will to bear His Son
The Visitation, when Mary visits Elizabeth and speaks the Magnificat.
The Nativity, the birth of Jesus Christ,
The Presentation in the Temple, when the infant Jesus is presented in the temple and Simeon knows that he has seen the Messiah,
The finding of the child Jesus in the Temple.

The Sorrowful Mysteries

The agony in the garden
The scourging at the pillar
The crowning of thorns
The carrying of the cross
The Crucifixion

The Glorious Mysteries

The Resurrection
The Ascension
The sending of the Holy Spirit
The Assumption
The Coronation

You seem to think that we Catholics will be embarrassed and contrite because we say the Rosary and that most of the prayers are asking for Mary's intercession, well guess what...I'm not embarrassed or contrite.

Most of my prayer is directed to God but I feel the need to pray more than I possibly can and so I ask the Holy Spirit, Mary and the Saints to pray for my intentions. That's the whole gist of it, there they are, up in Heaven, praising and glorifying God, seeing His face, feeling His Grace, knowing His love and reflecting it all back to God and I see nothing wrong with asking them to pray for me always.

Thanks for your reply on my inquiry about prayers to Jesus. What is the reason that we hear so little about this type of prayer (to Christ) and so much about the rosary and prayer to Mary? Don't you think one is emphasized a lot more than the other?

Only by Protestants who want to believe that we worship Mary.

No. Neither am I closing my eyes as I speak and assuming a posture of prayer as catholics do. Nor am I venerating them by affirming their blessedness and telling them how holy they are.

Well, once again, it says in the Bible, that the Holy Spirit (part of the Trinity) was speaking through Elizabeth and she exclaimed, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!

So if the Holy Spirit (part of the Trinity) confirms that Mary is blessed, I can do no less.

[Iowegian]

Name one Pope who taught heresy.

OK, thanks for asking. It wasn't me who said so it was an ecumenical church council. Go here