The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[dadwags]

#3410 Thanks for the reference .

[Titanites]

Tell me how if, Christians living in the first 5 or 6 centuries after Christ believed the same things that Christians believed through the Dark Ages, how that can be the reason FOR the Dark Ages? I think something else was involved.

I think that's a good point. I've seen it implied here in this thread before that the so called Dark Ages were somehow the fault of the Catholic Church. I think a little refresher of history may be in order.

The Dark Ages is a term that was once used to describe the early Middle Ages, from approximately A.D. 400 to 900, and referred to a supposed lack of learning during this period. But in reality, the early Middle Ages were not completely "dark."

The advent of the Middle Ages occurred when the Germanic barbarians took over the Roman empire and destroyed their system of civilization and laws. Education and culture were all but eliminated by these barbarians and the existing system of city and state schools were destroyed.

The Church was the primary civilizing force of the early Middle Ages. It provided leadership for the people and saved western Europe from complete ignorance.

Gradually, the Church converted the barbarians to Christianity. Although the Europeans didn't honor a single ruler any longer, they did gradually begin to worship the same God. Church missionaries spread the Christian faith, and they helped civilize the barbarians by introducing Roman ideas of government and justice into their lives.

The popes, bishops, and other leaders of the church took over many functions of government, to fill the void, after the Roman emperors lost power. The church collected taxes and maintained law courts to punish criminals. Church buildings also served as hospitals for the sick, and as inns for travelers.

Just so people don't get the wrong ideas.

[Iowegian]

Lemme guess, the Dark Ages didn't end until the prophet Martin Luther came along and shredded 7 books of the Bible because he didn't like indulgences very much.

You are very good at putting words into the mouths of others that they didn't mean or say. I would say that the Dark Ages continue even today for much of the world, just see those under communist oppression and Islamic oppression (for example).

[Titanites]

One other overlooked fact of the "Dark Ages" is that the Catholic Churches cathedrals and the monastersy became centers of learning. The monks set up most of the schools in Europe.

[Titanites]

monastersy should be monasterys.

[dadwags]

#3456
Tell us, Iowegian, what does the Church teach today that it didn't teach at the beginning ? Ref.,Please.
Of course, over the centuries, certain things were defined as they became controversial .the Doctrines were defined to close down arguement .

[Titanites]

I would say that the Dark Ages continue even today for much of the world, just see those under communist oppression and Islamic oppression (for example).

I agree, although you are not using the conventional definition of Dark Ages.

[Conservative til I die]

Good posts about the Dark Ages. One thing Iowegian doesn't find ironic is that the Dark Ages began AFTER the Barbarians sacked Rome and damaged the civilization that existed when the Church was "in charge."

[Iowegian]

When was "Papal infallibilty" introduced? I was under the impression that it was not introduced until much later (relatively speaking).

If you believe that your teachings are the same today, why do some RC's spend so much time on this thread saying that doctrine must be allowed to "develop" from what it once was? ("Greater understanding", is what they call it.)

[Iowegian]

I agree, although you are not using the conventional definition of Dark Ages.

Well, I'm glad we agree on something. I admitted in post #3455 that my personal definition was not what you find in the encyclopedia. Time marches on and history repeats itself many times. The Scripture says "There is nothing new under the sun."

[Iowegian]

Of course, over the centuries, certain things were defined as they became controversial .the Doctrines were defined to close down arguement .

That's a hole large enough to drive an entire fleet of trucks through.

[Titanites]

Of course, over the centuries, certain things were defined as they became controversial .the Doctrines were defined to close down arguement.

That's a hole large enough to drive an entire fleet of trucks through.

But didn't you just say:

The Scripture says "There is nothing new under the sun."

(Just joking. By the way, I don't recall that passage from Scripture. Do you have a reference? Thanks.)

[Pelayo]

Pelayo, hi. First of all, I want to clarify terms:

Ok, no prob.

1. When catholics speak of "grace," they mean "power" or "enablement." So when they say that this-or-that "confers grace," they mean that this-or-that gives one the power to be righteous. Is this correct?

Basically. Here is the CCC explanation... 2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54

2. According to the CAT. CAT. (catholic catechism), a sacrament is "a thing perceptible to the senses, which, on the grounds of Divine institution, possesses the power both of effecting and signifying sanctity and righteousness." In other words, a sacrament contains and causes sanctifying power in the person who partakes of the sacrament....Right?

More CCC info... 1131 The sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions.

I hope this helps you understand the belief system.

[Conservative til I die]

(Just joking. By the way, I don't recall that passage from Scripture.

Of course you wouldn't, Catholic. :)

ANnyways, I am outta here for awhile; going to eat some Chinese food with my ex-Jehovah's Witness girlfriend. (Ever wonder why I fixate on cults in my arguments so much?)

[Iowegian]

By the way, I don't recall that passage from Scripture. Do you have a reference?

LOL That was very clever. The verse was written by Solomon and is in Ecclesiastes. (I don't remember exact chapter and verse, sorry.)

[Iowegian]

Whoa, I just found it: Ecclesiates 1:9.

[Titanites]

The verse was written by Solomon and is in Ecclesiastes.

I should have suspected that since the phrase "under the sun" is used pretty frequently in Ecclesiastes. Thanks.

[OLD REGGIE]

I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that the angel was not addressing Mary in Lk 1:28?
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I'm saying an inch - "Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!"

Became this:

How to Pray the Rosary

While the complete rosary is composed of 15 decades, it is acceptable to recite five decades centered around either the Joyful, Sorrowful, or Glorious Mysteries on a given day. Beginning Prayers:

Sign of the Cross

The Apostle’s Creed (said on the large Crucifix)

The Our Father (first large bead after the Crucifix)

Three Hail Mary’s (said on the next three beads)

Glory Be to the Father (said on the next large bead )

Praying Each Decade:

Begin by naming a mystery of the rosary and begin mediating on that mystery throughout the remainder of the decade.

Recite the Our Father on a large bead.

Recite one Hail Mary on each of the next 10 small beads.

Recite the Glory Be to the Father and the ‘O My Jesus’ Prayer from Fatima on the next large bead.

Begin the next decade by naming the next mystery, and reciting the Our Father on the same large bead.

(continue steps two thru five until at least 5 decades have been recited).

Closing Prayers: Recite the Hail Holy Queen Prayer.

Close with the Prayer After the Rosary.

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Why don't you tell me where the prayer emphasis is.

[Titanites]

Why don't you tell me where the prayer emphasis is.

The emphasis of the Rosary is on Jesus' life and trials during his physical presence on earth. (I jumped in the middle of something here, so my apologies if my answer doesn't address what you were asking.)

[Titanites]

Just to clarify regarding the Rosary. It is a meditative form of prayer, with the meditation focused on the various mysteries of Christ's life. It is not a form of prayer required for Catholics to participate in, but many find it very rewarding. If you haven't used a meditative type of prayer you should try it some time. You might find that you like it.