The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[hopefulpilgrim]

"Everywhen." Love it! Thanks.

[hopefulpilgrim]

Johnny, thanks for typing out all the passages on rewards and inheritance. Good post. Thanks again.

[hopefulpilgrim]

As for me, I believe that Christ did what He did to give me the power to become actually holy, not to have me considered holy.

This is a slap in the face of God (so to speak). I know you don't mean it to be, but it IS !!! Look, Dave, to say that you want the power to become actually holy rather than be clothed with HIS righteousness is an INSULT to Jesus. He took your sin that you might have HIS righteousness. Have you ever given someone a gift, only to have them refuse to take it? What an insult it is!

I am not minimizing the importance of obedience or "holy" living; He commands us to purify our lives in 1 Jn. 3:3 and in 2 Tim 2:21f and in many other places!!!

Do NOT refuse His gift, the gift of HIMSELF as YOUR righteousness.

"God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God IN HIM."

(2 Cor. 5:21)

Although the context of the following verse is speaking of Israel, "who has a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge", it seems to fit you and your views, too:

"For not knowing about God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes [to those who don't refuse it.]"

[hopefulpilgrim]

Sacraments are not merely "material." They, like the Incarnation itself, are a working together of the matter which makes up our world and the power of God who rules everything. Each Sacrament is a mini-Incarnation as God become present through the actions and material used in imitation of Christ Himself.

Enlighten us, Dave. Show us where Christ instituted these sacraments (other than baptism and the Lord's Supper) which are "mini-incarnations" of God. Show us also where God says that this is what they are.

While you have your Bible open, find where God tells us that any of these things infuse strength into a person.

[hopefulpilgrim]

vmatt, I'll bet you're a pretty nice fella', but you sure are CONFUSED. You quote verses out of context. You even quote verses that prove the point you are arguing against. Have you been programmed? :^ º

[hopefulpilgrim]

After we repent and ask forgiveness from our sins we are forgiven. But there is still damage that must be repaired. Here on earth, or before we get to Heaven, the damage must be repaired.

Prove it, Dave!

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I don't think there is only one way and your way is fine.

You know, it really doesn't matter what YOU think. God has always been very honest in his Word about wanting His children to do things His way. Read Num. 15:32-36.

Also consider this: Ex. 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any raven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Most people would say they don't have any idols or statues in their house , but God isn't talking about just idols you make. According to Rom. 1:21-25 He is also talking about the imagination of our heart with which we make the gods we want.

Some people have a god that is a good god. He is so loving, kind and wonderful he just lets anyone and everyone do whatever they want. So you can go ahead and live however you want and when you die and stand before God, He is going to say Forget it, just come on in.

What you have done in thinking this way is made God in your own image. You have made an idol of your own. God says He condemns this. Just as he did about picking up sticks on the sabbath in the Numbers 15:32 verses.

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

But you really aren't, God just sees you that way? I am sorry but in Heaven I will be truly pure. Innocent, not merely "acquitted.

But the way God sees me is the only thing that is important! Your spliting hairs, and this is the kind of remark that shows the convoluted way catholics keep issues confused so that no one really knows what to think.

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

If the RCC is in error she is misleading one billion, more or less, persons in error.

Considering your remark about there being more then one way to God, how do you know the RCC is in error, or vmatt for that matter. You see with your thinking you are not letting God make the decisons on the right way and the wrong way, you are making those decisons, and IMO that would be very dangerous. God gave us a clear AND simple plan to follow, but man, being so egotistical always thinks they can help God out and do things better. Think about it:)

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

You asked way back at the beginning of the week about my parents. I responded, but didn't understand the point of the question, and have been wondering all week about it. Soooo...what was that all about?

Becky

[OLD REGGIE]

Becky

I am certain you are aware I have not claimed to be a Fundamentalist, or even a Protestant. I have been labeled this by some simply because of all the "Christian" bodies I firmly believe the RCC is the most dangerous to it's body of "faithful".

I am not looking for converts, I don't claim to have the "One and Only Truth". I came to my beliefs through thought, reading, discussions, and just plain "inspiration". This simple, dumb, "inspiration" resulted in my personal belief: Accept Jesus Christ as Your Lord and Savior". All else stems from this. saradippity stated this and, although I, personally, think she might have some added baggage, I believe her belief in Jesus will suffice.

I respect your sincerity and believe it works for you. I simply don't accept it is the only way.

[OLD REGGIE]

"Temporal Punishment: That temporal punishment is due to sin, even after the sin itself has been pardoned by God, is clearly the teaching of Scripture." (CE)

Hi, Reggie. The CE gave no references to support this statement?

Well, yes there are references to the OT, Apocrypha, and NT. I reviewed the NT references and could see no relationship to the claim. I did not look at the OT simply because I believe the rules changed with the New Covenant and, since the Apocrypha is fake anyway, I wouldn't look there.

CE "PROOFS": (NT only)

New Testament

There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death. Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come." According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life "some sins wil be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire." St. Augustine also argues "that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come" (De Civ. Dei, XXI, xxiv). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers.

A further argument is supplied by St. Paul in I Cor., iii, 11-1,5: "For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." While this passage presents considerable difficulty, it is regarded by many of the Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the dross of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved. This, according to Bellarmine (De Purg., I, 5), is the interpretation commonly given by the Fathers and theologians; and he cites to this eftect:
================================

Best for you to read the entire CE article.

PURGATORY

[OLD REGGIE]

Considering your remark about there being more then one way to God, how do you know the RCC is in error, or vmatt for that matter. You see with your thinking you are not letting God make the decisons on the right way and the wrong way, you are making those decisons, and IMO that would be very dangerous. God gave us a clear AND simple plan to follow, but man, being so egotistical always thinks they can help God out and do things better. Think about it:)

Becky

I recently saw a Havoc post wherein he explained he sometimes posts a few lines, runs around, comes back and posts a few more lines, etc. Well, that is his reason for, on occassion, making a mistake in his posts.

I have rambled on so long I almost forgot the point I was trying to make. My reason (excuse) is old age, senior moments, and general addlepatedness.

I never meant to imply there was more one way to God. I believe there is only one way; Through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. Some of us might take the straight road, some might go the scenic route, and some may take a few detours and put on extra mileage. That is all I meant to say.

[vmatt]

You quote verses out of context. You even quote verses that prove the point you are arguing against.

It's easy to criticize someone and not provide any proof. I say this to all here as well as you, if only you could see just how programmed we have all been you would begin to realize just how badly we all need deprogramming. We must all undo the programming before we can begin to see real truth.

The Jews of Christs time are a prime example. They were programmed that their Messiah would come riding a white horse leading a great army to destroy the Romans. They were so programmed with this belief that they killed the very Messiah they had awaited thousands of years.

Now today "Christians" look to the sky for their great "rapture" which will absolutely not happen and are so blinded by this fabulous hoax that just like the Jews they will not see the real working of God in this age because of their programmed belief, which they will not question, and will reject the working of God because of it.

I will make you a challenge: prove I used any scripture out of context, allow me to defend it, and if there are three witnesses here who will agree one way or another, I will apologize and lurk for one full month in self imposed exile. Since I can easily do that with the ignorance I see here, I will force myself to read every single post. I say only one thing, God will judge who unfairly judges me.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Some of us might take the straight road, some might go the scenic route, and some may take a few detours and put on extra mileage. That is all I meant to say.

Matt. 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The bible doesn't mention scenic routes, or detours, it says strait, and I believe He meant strait. IMO:) Just as God told the guy in Numbers not to pick up sticks on the Sabbath, or for that matter when he told Eve not to eat of the fruit on the tree. We always want to take the bible and say "God didn't really mean that, he meant this. He meant you could go the scenic route or take a detour, that's OK." But God has proven numerous times, He says what he means, and he means what he says.

Becky

[Pelayo]

I respect your sincerity and believe it works for you. I simply don't accept it is the only way.

I am not looking for converts, I don't claim to have the "One and Only Truth".

I respect your sincerity and believe it works for you. I simply don't accept it is the only way.

I never meant to imply there was more one way to God. I believe there is only one way; Through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.

I firmly believe the RCC is the most dangerous to it's body of "faithful".

So what is wrong with Catholics? Do you believe we don't have faith in our Lord too?

[hopefulpilgrim]

Hi, REG. Thanks for your reply. As for the Matt. 12:32 reference to purgatory:

Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come."

This is in no way supportive of purgatory....Not even remotely. On this one, Augustine's used faulty logic...like a lot of logic concerning extra-biblical religious concepts.

As for:

A further argument is supplied by St. Paul in I Cor., iii, 11-1,5 "...If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." While this passage presents considerable difficulty, it is regarded by many of the Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the dross of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved.

This passage has nothing to do with real (literal) fire, just as it has nothing to do with real (literal) wood, hay, stubble, and gold, silver, precious stones. (In fact, if you read the passage in the context of the whole chapter ((1 Cor. 3)), you can see that this is a judgment of God's ministers in the church who are building ((we are the building; they are the builders)) upon the foundation of Christ.) At any rate, this has nothing to do with a so-called purification in "purgatory."

I know that you are aware of all this, Reg. Thank you for going back to look at the article again and for providing the link. God bless. Hopefulpilgrim

[Conservative til I die]

That settles it! Thanks to your out-of-context verse, I'm never going to Church again! I have seen the light! Now where's my Jack Chick comics.

[Conservative til I die]

Catholics group together around the cookie and damn and kick the milk for anything their worth, lest the milk saturate and crumble the cookie. Ya'll defend your philosophies at any cost. You dip only as it pleases you to do so and heaven and earth tremble should you ever, oh to think it, drink the milk and set the cookie aside - woe. You can't have it both ways. You can drink the milk or eat the cookie. The milk may make your stomache a little sour; but, it's good for you. The cookie is sweet but it'll rot your teath and poison your body. Woe. But you hold on to your bags of cookies and won't drink the untainted milk. You have to pour liquer or chocolate in the milk before you can stomach it because after all the cookies, you're lactose intolerant!! But you do have purgatory pills to keep the stomache fooled. >>>>> Do you do acid often?

[OLD REGGIE]

I firmly believe the RCC is the most dangerous to it's body of "faithful".

So what is wrong with Catholics? Do you believe we don't have faith in our Lord too?

If you will note what I said, I didn't say there was anything at all wrong with "Catholics". I did say I believed the RCC was dangerous to the "Faithful".

I believe there countless millions of Catholics in this world who have no idea who the Lord is. They pray to Mary, they pray to various Saints, they pray to statues, they never pray directly to Jesus. What the "Official Church Teaching" is, it is of no matter if the "people" don't have any idea what it is. This is what I believe is dangerous.

I believe those "Catholics" who can sort through all the "extras" and find the way directly to the Lord are o.k. in spite of the misdirection.

You may note some Protestants, as well as Catholics, think I am full of it. So be it.