Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
You missed the point. Why Has the Catholic church never drawn a parallel between being changed in an instant and purgatory?
Why is this "instantaneous" thing considered to be a state of suffering? Because we will be aware of the change happening. Our selves, literally, will be ripped apart as the good is separated from the bad. We will become painfully aware of the limitations of our souls, how much impurity remains after a lifetime of trying to be pure. It will be anguish to consider how much God wants for us and how often we had rejected it. It may be "instantaneous" (whatever time means), but it will be experienced.
I don't know what your experience with God has been spiritually; but, God doesn't beat his people up when he comes in contact with them. His spirit is loving. And the process is not one of separating good from bad. It's one of changing from Mortal or Natural to Immortal and Supernatural. One has to keep these things in Context. Jesus said sin is death but belief in and obedience to Him grants eternal life. If there is still sin in the life of a Christian, it is not something they don't know about if they are truly Christian. And if it hasn't been dealt with at death, it is an anchor around their neck. God does not honor Sin. Nor does he cleanse one of sin automatically. Sin must be repented from and forgiven before the end of life according to the Bible. Sin has consequence in the natural and in the spiritual. Catholicism doesn't understand this.
Catholicism has created a whole different system of Sin and how to address it. The Catholic system bears no resemblance to the Bible. It is no wonder that Purgatory is upheld even today. The philosophy of Sin that Catholicism has adopted requires the philosophical construct of purgatory. It's a natural progression of the prior lie. If man dies with sin, the Bible says one Goes to hell. But Catholicism says there are sins that won't put you in hell. The funny thing is that rather than admit that the first philosophy is wrong in it's contradiction with the Bible, Catholicism keeps the earlier lie and props it up by creating purgatory and then attempting to make it jive with the Bible. That doesn't work either.
It will also be a state of both sorrow for our shortcomings and joy for our near arrival in the Perfect Bliss of Heaven.
Then there are gems like this: Propounded as if from direct knowledge of the happenstance. Makes it sound good doesn't it. Candy for the ears. The Best lies are usually the best sounding and the Biggest. Hitler proved that the bigger the lie, the more likely people will believe it for it's boldness. The Catholic Church thrives on the truth of the statement,'If treason persists, none dare call it treason.' I wouldn't be a Christian if I didn't call it what it is. And it is a blasphemous treason.
I'm sure you took that our of context or did not understand the rhetorical point they wer making. It probably had something to do with the acute realization of our unworthiness. In hell the soul can feel, much like in prison today, that he got "ripped off" that God isn't being "fair." In Purgatory, we will be made clean, each piece of dirt on our souls will be removed and examined. The ultimate goal of perfection is sweet, but the actual process of being cleaned may be even more painful than simply being damned.
Lemme quote an article for you: "Saint Mary Magdalen de Pazzi tells us that 'the pains suffered by all the martyrs are as pleasent gardens in comparison with the sufferings of the souls in purgatory'"
"Saint Cyril said that, as for himself, he would rather suffer all the pains that have beset man from the time of Adam together with all that will beset him until the end of the world, rather than spend one day in purgatory. For since nothing, impure can enter Heaven, one must go to purgatory and, there, only tremendous suffering can satisfy the temporal punishment due offenses against an Infinite Goodness."
"Saint Bridget beheld a soul in purgatory [yeah, right] tortured inexplicably for having been vain and having thought more of frivolous diversion than of things spiritual."
"Saint Mary Magdalen de Pazzi reports that a saintly rligious was detained 16 days in purtatory for three trifling faults and that she would have been there longer had it not been that she had been very faithful to her rule"
"A certain layman, although he was a good (Roman) Catholic was fifty-nine years in purgatory because of his love of comfort; another, thirty-five years for the same reason; a third, who was too fond of gambling was in purgatory for sixty years."
"There is no man who can contemplate the fact of purgatory, then his own conscience, and not tremble with anxiety. First there is the fact that purgatory, regardless of its halo of being an ante-court of Heaven, is a chamber in which man expiates his sins against an Almighty and Infinite Good God. Second, the torture of this purification, and of delay from the eternal possession of God, may go on until the day of judgement! As a matter of fact, some private revelations witness that many souls are in purgatory until the day of Judgement; Saint Robert Bellarmine, a Doctor of the Church, says: 'There is absolutely no doubt that the pains of purgatory in some cases endure for entire centuries.'"
-Haffert, John M. "Saturday in Purgatory", Scapular press, NY. Imprimatur - F.J. Spellman, Archbishop of New York.
"The pains of purgatory are very severe, surpassing anything endured in this life. According to the Holy Fathers of the Church, the fire of purgatory does not differ from the fire of hell, except in point of duration.... Nothing but the eternal duration makes the fire of hell more terrible than that of purgatory." -Bishop Bellermine, "The Manual of the Purgatorial Society."
Nowhere in all the Bible is such tripe propounded.
me:
The Catholic purgatory is a spiritual pennitentiary. The Bible paints no such picture - nor does it even mention it. Yet, Catholicism has defined it to the point of telling such intricacies as how long one might expect, on average, to spend in purgatory.
SD:
No it hasn't. Penances were often given to be served in durations of time. And indulgences were granted in durations of time. But Purgatory was never taught to be in durations of time. Surely to explain the process of cleansing we may need to speak of "time" spent in Purgatory, but that is only a fault in the language. God isn't really "above" us in Heaven but we talk that way cause it's the only way we have.
Yeah, that's why the dead speak of people in purgatory for 35-50 years - as though they have such a concept of time... proclaimations are given that people will be in purgatory for centuries. All time based. Admit it, the only fault in the language is that it can't call Catholicism a liar all by itself: People still must read and think. The Word of God, on the other hand, is a different matter. It is alive. And it does call Catholicism a liar - and boldly so. At every turn when talking about purgatory, another unbiblical notion crops up. The props upon which it is built are lies manufactured from the pit.
The souls of the lost die with their bodies in the grave under the eternal judgement of God.
Ezekiel 18
1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
If you all are trying to live a godly life, His word tells you to go to church. You need the fellowship of other christians, so I am exhorting you to find an Independent Fundamental Bible Believing Church:)
Becky
LOL. I wanted to go after that myself but thought the better of it. The other mother proves that works will get you sainthood. All in all, we all need prayer but I for one don't know how to pray. And I hazard a guess most of us don't. How Catholics can pray their vain repetition of our Fathers and hail Marys is beyond me. But then much of their traditions are.
That's the fluffy bunny God. All nice and forgiving. You forget that God is both perfect mercy and perfect justice. Where is the justice if I steal a hundred dollars, say I'm sorry, am forgiven, and keep the hundred dollars?
There are temporal effects to our sin, and while we may be forgiven by the sacrifice of Christ, there is still damage to ourselves, others, and God which must be repaired.
And the process is not one of separating good from bad. It's one of changing from Mortal or Natural to Immortal and Supernatural. One has to keep these things in Context.
Whatever. Would it make you happier if I said that we will be purged, changed from Mortal to Immortal, or from Natural to supernatural? The point is the same. The way we are right now is not sufficient. We shall be changed. What is corrupt must be come incorruptible.
Jesus said sin is death but belief in and obedience to Him grants eternal life. If there is still sin in the life of a Christian, it is not something they don't know about if they are truly Christian. And if it hasn't been dealt with at death, it is an anchor around their neck.
So if I kill someone and repent at the end of my life, am I forgiven? Did I repair the damage I did with my sin?
God does not honor Sin. Nor does he cleanse one of sin automatically. Sin must be repented from and forgiven before the end of life according to the Bible. Sin has consequence in the natural and in the spiritual. Catholicism doesn't understand this.
Oh, I see. You don't understand Purgatory or Catholicism at all. (Surprise, surprise.) Do you think that the Purging is of unrepented sins? You really don't get it.
After we repent and ask forgiveness from our sins we are forgiven. But there is still damage that must be repaired. Here on earth, or before we get to Heaven, the damage must be repaired.
I'm sure you took that our of context or did not understand the rhetorical point they were making. It probably had something to do with the acute realization of our unworthiness. In hell the soul can feel, much like in prison today, that he got "ripped off" that God isn't being "fair." In Purgatory, we will be made clean, each piece of dirt on our souls will be removed and examined. The ultimate goal of perfection is sweet, but the actual process of being cleaned may be even more painful than simply being damned.
Lemme quote an article for you: "Saint Mary Magdalen de Pazzi tells us that 'the pains suffered by all the martyrs are as pleasent gardens in comparison with the sufferings of the souls in purgatory'" "Saint Cyril said that, as for himself, he would rather suffer all the pains that have beset man from the time of Adam together with all that will beset him until the end of the world, rather than spend one day in purgatory. For since nothing, impure can enter Heaven, one must go to purgatory and, there, only tremendous suffering can satisfy the temporal punishment due offenses against an Infinite Goodness." "Saint Bridget beheld a soul in purgatory [yeah, right] tortured inexplicably for having been vain and having thought more of frivolous diversion than of things spiritual." "Saint Mary Magdalen de Pazzi reports that a saintly rligious was detained 16 days in purtatory for three trifling faults and that she would have been there longer had it not been that she had been very faithful to her rule" "A certain layman, although he was a good (Roman) Catholic was fifty-nine years in purgatory because of his love of comfort; another, thirty-five years for the same reason; a third, who was too fond of gambling was in purgatory for sixty years." "There is no man who can contemplate the fact of purgatory, then his own conscience, and not tremble with anxiety. First there is the fact that purgatory, regardless of its halo of being an ante-court of Heaven, is a chamber in which man expiates his sins against an Almighty and Infinite Good God. Second, the torture of this purification, and of delay from the eternal possession of God, may go on until the day of judgement! As a matter of fact, some private revelations witness that many souls are in purgatory until the day of Judgement; Saint Robert Bellarmine, a Doctor of the Church, says: 'There is absolutely no doubt that the pains of purgatory in some cases endure for entire centuries.'" -Haffert, John M. "Saturday in Purgatory", Scapular press, NY. Imprimatur - F.J. Spellman, Archbishop of New York. "The pains of purgatory are very severe, surpassing anything endured in this life. According to the Holy Fathers of the Church, the fire of purgatory does not differ from the fire of hell, except in point of duration.... Nothing but the eternal duration makes the fire of hell more terrible than that of purgatory." -Bishop Bellermine, "The Manual of the Purgatorial Society."
Is any of this you quoted saying what you said, that some Catholics wished to be in hell rather than go to Purgatory? No. When will you stop lying?
SD
Becky
The question was asked and answered. I believe dignan3 gave the full answer. It's not my fault you can't read.
(and I mean this seriously)
Sadly
because the RCC is embarrased with the proclamations of "Perpetual Virginity" and "Bodily Assumption".
We boldy declare these. The only embarasment is that we have let the devil speak to too many of our former followers, tempting them with their own infalliblity. And resistance to reason and nuance.
It is now necessary to defend this position against Scripture, History, and Reason. From this point forward the Church will encouch each Papal Pronouncement with enough "smoke" that it will be impossible to pin it down. Wanna bet?
You are delusional. I don't gamble with that type.
SD
Becky
Men led of the Spirit of God and working his Will are hardly loose cannons. They are powerful howitzers! Jesus did it, the Apostles did it, and modern Christians do the same. Catholics can't claim this. Catholics are led by the Catholic church and cannot give a sure answer, seemingly, on anything without diferring to the clergy. God's people know His word and will. If you have to ask someone what God's word and will is after claiming for years to be Christian, you haven't the slightest idea what a Christian is or who God is.
There is more than one person in error because they believe that the spirit whispering in their ear is that of God. Take all of the Calvinist. Or all of the Arminians. One of those two are all wet and being led by a false spirit.
And your beliefs are the cause of it. I notice nobody took up the issue of how we know we are being truly led by the Holy Spirit. You can't admit that your entire religious outlook rests on the hope that you aren't being led by a demon.
SD
But you really aren't, God just sees you that way? I am sorry but in Heaven I will be truly pure. Innocent, not merely "acquitted."
SD
What of the months that have been spent here. Haven't I answered your questions when you have them? Haven't I tried to explain things?
SD
I beg to differ. I gave an answer. If you imgine you can be saved then loose your salvation, you are NOT being led by the spirit. If you are saved YOU KNOW, because you know it is not you, but Jesus who is keeping you, and Jesus does not fail. Praise God for that.
Becky
Wish I had a nickle...anyway, I have preached, prayed, spoken in tongues, danced, sang, sat stood and knelt in a couple hundred churches of every denomination and nondenominational church.
I can assertively state beyond any doubt that not one knows what it is doing and may be doing more harm than good. I await Gods call but until then I will study and attempt to pray until God raises up a man or group of men who he has sent.
Becky
Becky
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