The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
TNS Archives

[Elsie]

YHWH

Strong's Ref. # 3068

Romanized Yhovah
Pronounced yeh-ho-vaw'

from HSN1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:

KJV--Jehovah, the Lord. Compare HSN3050, 3069.

[Elsie]

NIV Isaiah 7:11-14
 11.  "Ask the LORD your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights."
 12.  But Ahaz said, "I will not ask; I will not put the LORD to the test."
 13.  Then Isaiah said, "Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God also?
 14.  Therefore the Lord himself will give you  a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

 

NIV Isaiah 8:10-14

 

 11.  The LORD spoke to me with his strong hand upon me, warning me not to follow the way of this people. He said:
 12.  "Do not call conspiracy everything that these people call conspiracy ; do not fear what they fear, and do not dread it.
 13.  The LORD Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, he is the one you are to fear, he is the one you are to dread,
 14.  and he will be a sanctuary; but for both houses of Israel he will be a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. And for the people of Jerusalem he will be a trap and a snare.

 

NIV Matthew 1:20-23
 20.  But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
 21.  She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,  because he will save his people from their sins."
 22.  All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:
 23.  "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."

 

[DouglasKC]

who with Your only-begotten Son and the Holy Spirit are one God, one Lord:
Not in the oneness of a single person, but three persons in one single essence.
For what we believe from your revelation concerning Your glory,
that also we believe of Your Son and of the Holy Spirit without difference or distinction;
so that when we affirm the true and everlasting Godhead we worship three distinct persons in a oneness of Being and with equality of majesty.

Would you agree with these sentiments?

No, the holy spirit is the spirit of God and Christ manifest in our world. It does not exist as a "person" in heaven as part of God. It IS God's presence on earth and within us, it is the part of God that exists on earth. The clearest example of this is here:

ct 7:55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, looking intently into the heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right of God.

No holy spirit in heaven. God and Jesus only with the Holy Spirit being on earth.

Nowhere in the bible, with the exception of 1 John 5:7 in the King James and is nearly universally acknowledged to be an addition, is the holy spirit ever pictured as being in heaven with God or Jesus.

That being said, I'm still curious as to what the "proper" trinatarianism form of baptism is?

[Proud2BAmerican]

Nowhere...is the holy spirit ever pictured as being in heaven with God or Jesus.

What about the spirit as a dove descending FROM Heaven (where He had previously resided)? Did you read that Web link I provided?

The Trinitarian formula would be: In the name of the father, and of the son, and of the Holy Spirit (with the understanding and belief of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit as mentioned in my previous post).

[RobbyS]

Your approach to Scripture is primarily psychological, even before it is philological. Start from the premise that "salvation" os a personal experience, than Scripture becomes a means of personal affirmation. The essential Lutherman posture: I against the world.

[DouglasKC]

What about the spirit as a dove descending FROM Heaven (where He had previously resided)? Did you read that Web link I provided?
The Trinitarian formula would be: In the name of the father, and of the son, and of the Holy Spirit (with the understanding and belief of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit as mentioned in my previous post).

Yes read it. The spirt as a dove descending from heaven. That's exactly what happens. God interacts in our world. His interaction in our world manifest as the holy spirit. In this case, it resembled a dove. It says nothing about it being a person IN heaven.

The formula is biblically correct and that's exactly how I was baptized. Nowhere in the bible though does it say that your interpetation is the correct one.

[Havoc]

Fine. But all you had to say was that you define homosexualtiy by it's behavior not inclination. That you believe that the concept of a homosexual man who abstained from any lusts toward men was a "null set".

Not to entirely disagree; but, there is still a spiritual component missing that is not addressed in your "null set" argument. If the inclination exists so too does the spiritual problem - to whatever degree it is there. Homosexuality is not inherited through the genes, though it can be spiritually inherited. So we aren't talking about something that occurs naturally. It is decidedly unnatural. God's commandments deal with spiritual defects - not physical. Though spiritual defects may have a physical component.

[Havoc]

So are you saying that if he had stopped drinking, he would not have "been delivered of it"?

No, I'm saying he did stop drinking for a long time. It made him no less an alcoholic because the spiritual problem had not been dealt with that was causing him to want to drink in the first place. If he had been delivered of it, he would not have returned to drinking.

[Havoc]

Your approach to Scripture is primarily psychological, even before it is philological. Start from the premise that "salvation" os a personal experience, than Scripture becomes a means of personal affirmation. The essential Lutherman posture: I against the world.

Again, you're talking out your backside here. My approach to scripture is spiritual, not psychological. Psychology is a farce - it is the modern religion of secularism. Everything is a disorder because the spiritual does not exist - hence: if one has a demon, treat them with drugs because demons don't really exist... Instead of trying to categorize me wrongly, why not deal with the scripture and the issues at hand. The RCC won't call sin for what it is and ya'll are defensive about it. Carry on.

[trad_anglican]

The Holy Bible is the way God chose to reveal Himself to Mankind.

Hope you don't mind my jumping in ksen, but here is the crux of the issue, it seems to me. God entered into history and revealed Himself directly to us through the incarnation.

Jesus' earthly minstry only lasted about 3 years. Jesus Himself only lived on earth for about 33 years. If we did not have the testimony of Scripture, how would we know of Christ?

At the end of those 33 years, Jesus did something. He didn't write a book telling us what we should believe and what we should do. He left a visible Church as an extension of His incarnation to do that. Even in the absence of any scripture, we would still have the testimony of the visible Church (though it is hard to imagine 2000 years passing with nothing ever written down), so we could still know of Christ. He appointed leaders of His Church and gave them the authority to run it. And He sent the Holy Spirit to govern the Church through the hearts of the men whom He chose. And they chose others, first Matthias, then more.

So to say the Holy Bible is the way God chose to reveal Himself to us is, in my opinion, incorrect for the Bible itself shows us these other "forms" of revelation.

[trad_anglican]

No holy spirit in heaven. God and Jesus only with the Holy Spirit being on earth.

John 15:26 When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

How can the Spirit go out from the Father if it is not with the Father? And if the Spirit is not sent from Heaven, where is it sent from?

[DouglasKC]

No holy spirit in heaven. God and Jesus only with the Holy Spirit being on earth.
John 15:26 When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.
How can the Spirit go out from the Father if it is not with the Father? And if the Spirit is not sent from Heaven, where is it sent from?

You're kind of coming on in the middle here...my position is that the holy spirit comes from God, so yes it comes from heaven. But it is not a seperate "person" up in heaven. It is the manifestation of God in our physical world.

[JohnnyM]

Is your spirit, you?? Is your soul, you?? Is your physical body, you??? You seem to agree that the Holy Spirit comes from God and is in fact His Spirit, but you don't agree that the Holy Spirit is God. Am I correct in what you believe???

JM

[DouglasKC]

Is your spirit, you?? Is your soul, you?? Is your physical body, you??? You seem to agree that the Holy Spirit comes from God and is in fact His Spirit, but you don't agree that the Holy Spirit is God. Am I correct in what you believe???

Of course the holy spirit is God. One and the same. It's just not a seperate "person" as presented in the trinity theory.

[JohnnyM]

So then, do you consider your spirit and your physical self EXACTLY the same???

JM

[DouglasKC]

So then, do you consider your spirit and your physical self EXACTLY the same???

No I don't. But God is all spiritual so the analogy doesn't quite hold up...

[JohnnyM]

God is all Spiritual?? So Jesus was all spiritual???

JM

[DouglasKC]

God is all Spiritual?? So Jesus was all spiritual???

No of course not. Jesus was physical while here on earth. He's spiritual now.

[JohnnyM]

"It's just not a seperate "person" as presented in the trinity theory."

Now Jesus referred to the Spirit as a He, which implies personality. You agree that the Holy Spirit is God. That Jesus is God, and that the Father is God. You agree both Jesus and the Father are "persons", but the Holy Spirit who is descibed as a Counselor, Helper, indwelling in us, and referred to by both God the Father and God the Son as a He, is not a "person". How do you define personage??

JM