The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[ksen]

That is a Muslim attitude not a Christian attitude: Jesus Christ and the gift of the Holy Spirit are the full self-revelation of God. Holy Scripture only contains what is reducible to text of God's self-revelation, and most likely not all of that--no Christian tradition is without its commentaries on Holy Scripture, greatly revered by members of each confession. Or are you a member of a confession I have never heard of which condemns written commentaries on Scripture?

The Holy Bible is the way God chose to reveal Himself to Mankind. Jesus' earthly minstry only lasted about 3 years. Jesus Himself only lived on earth for about 33 years. If we did not have the testimony of Scripture, how would we know of Christ?

I am not pooh-poohing the idea that we can look back at those who have come before us and be edified by any writings they may have left. I am only arguing that the Scriptures should hold pre-eminence over them.

I don't know where you get the idea that I don't believe in commentaries. I have about eight of them on the book of Hebrews alone that are demanding my attention while I am responding to you. Are you sure you are not SoothingDave logged in under a different name?

You also missed my point that you do not use the full Christian scriptures. Protestants follow the opinion of Luther that the books removed from the Old Testament by the Christ-denying rabbis of the Council of Jamnia in 90 A.D. should not be considered Holy Scripture by Christians. The Orthodox (along with the Latins, the Monophysites and the Nestorians) all accept the entire Jewish canon which the Jews of Alexandria in the third century before Christ felt worthy of being translated from Hebrew into Greek.

What Protestants do or don't do doesn't concern me. You should take up what they did with them. As far as not accepting the Apocrypha, you need to convince me that it belongs as part of the canon of the Old Testament. The version used by the Palestinian Jews, the Masoritic Text, does not include the Apocrypha. That is the text that the KJV translators used and that is the one I have confidence in.

-ksen

[Havoc]

If just simply *being* homosexual were a sin, then it would turn the old addage on its head to instead read: Hate the sin, and hate the sinner as well.

Is a murderer less a murderer because he is prevented from killing? Is the only reason Charles Manson was jailed, the fact that he murdered one - or many? The propensity is not the issue, it's what causes the propensity. One who is given over to sin is mastered by that sin and all the things that go with it. You show me a multiple murderer who isn't possessed or severly opressed and we'll have a robot to reprogram into building Dodges instead of weilding weapons. Do the scriptures just ring hollow when they say a man cannot have two masters. Do you all stop thinking at the surfaces statement - failing to discern why. It isn't a matter of philosophy - it's a matter of scriptural principals that have been stated. If you know the scriptures and understand spirituality, these things are dead obvious.

[Havoc]

Everything you posted about is sin. It is also homosexual behavior. That is... committing a homosexual act. Nowhere does it say that being inclined toward the same sex but never acting on it in any way or lusting after them is a sin.

Evidently, you need to go back and read Corinthians and Timothy again - Effeminate, those who abuse themselves with men... ringing any bells. You may want to break out a dictionary or two. You may also wish to read what the Bible says about being a slave to sin. A homosexual that does not lust after men and does not desire men is not a homosexual. A man that does these things is still mastered by his sin. One can be delivered of the spirit or they can live with it knowing that God does not dwell in a temple of the devil.

[Proud2BAmerican]

If Charles Manson didn't murder ANYONE, he wouldn't have been in jail. To BE a murderer you have to MURDER someone first.

I think IMRight uses an excellent illustration with the alcoholic.

You wrote: If you know the scriptures and understand spirituality, these things are dead obvious.

Why do discussions between Catholics and NCs always seem to devolve to this? So what you're saying is that if we don't agree with your understanding of the Scriptures and your understanding of spirituality, then we're completely wrong. You would be more accurate to say instead: "If you interpret the scriptures the way I do and understand spirituality the way I do, these things are dead obvious."

[OLD REGGIE]

Interesting, but what does the Scripture received by the Church have? The Church did not pursue hypothetical ur-texts when it fixed the canon of Scripture, as to do so would leave the canon forever unsettled: the ur-text of the Books of Moses is surely unrecoverable this side of the Last Judgement.

The relevant question for Christians is what does the text received by the Church contain--in the case of the New Testament, this text is usually called the "Byzantine Majority Text" by modern scholars.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Proud2BAmerican]

A homosexual that does not lust after men and does not desire men is not a homosexual. A man that does these things is still mastered by his sin.

Ok, I think I am now beginning to perceive the source of our disagreement. It appears, at least to me, that we're arguing past each other, each incorrectly thinking the other holds to a certain belief.

Specifically, it's the determination of what constitutes a homosexual person: we're saying that the inclination, or proclivity, is still there, but that the "homosexual" person does not lust after men and does not desire men, by the strength of God's grace. Similar to an alcoholic who, by the Grace of God, masters his sin (although, for that particular individual, the proclivity for sinning is greater than in other people, for whatever reason).

It sounds to me, from your above statement, that you would consider a "homosexual" who does not desire men and does not lust after men to cease being a homosexual. (In which case, I assume you would agree that "homosexual" man -- who is not homosexual, by your definition -- is not guilty of the sin of homosexuality).

[RobbyS]

I can read.. Except you do it in isolation, as though the language were your own. But even Jesus had to use the language of other men.

[Havoc]

I think IMRight uses an excellent illustration with the alcoholic.

I think he doesn't. One of my stepfathers, the first, died of alcoholism. Drinking or not drinking didn't make him less of an alcoholic. Failing to be delivered from it kept him from not being an alcoholic. I loved the man like a father and I cried when he passed; but, he was given over to a sin, not a disease. The modern sin is to clinicalise spiritual problems and try to make men believe that men can cure them or that they can cure themselves. It doesn't often work.

And as far as your shot across the bow on interpretation, need I write a book in here by way of quoting the volumes of scripture on the subject? I can, I'm just wondering if that is something we need to do. Because scripture is quite clear as to the nature of sin and men being mastered by their sins. I think you could probably quote me the verses, that doesn't mean you understand them.

[IMRight]

A homosexual that does not lust after men and does not desire men is not a homosexual.

Ahhh. See... Now, that's all you needed to say to everyone elses post. You didn't need to go on with the rest of it.

I differentiated between homosexual orientation and homosexual behavior, saying that the behavior is sin, the orientation (absent any behavior or "lusting) is not. You went on to try to belittle me by posting at great length showing that homosexual behavior is sinfull (which cannot be used to contradict me since it was my point - kinda like when you used my definition of blasphemy to contradict my definition of blasphemy).

Fine. But all you had to say was that you define homosexualtiy by it's behavior not inclination. That you believe that the concept of a homosexual man who abstained from any lusts toward men was a "null set".

Then the answer to your question is straitforward. The RCC is unabashedly anti homosexual behavior. There is no doubt that any action (or fantasy or lust or whatever) in that direction is sinful. The RCC goes on further to discuss those with (I believe) a mental defect causing them to find men attractive rather than women. They must abstain from any activity (phtsical or mental) in that regard. IF they do remain completely chaste, they avoid sin. I can find a young woman attractive without holding "lust in my heart" for her (evidence of my "heterosexuality", but not sinfull). You merely believe there is no such group of chaste homosexual people (If they do not act on it, they are not gay). Fine. I've never been able to understand the whole "culture" myself.

Try a search of "Catholic" Gay & Lesbian sites (but prepare a barf bag first) and see what they think the RCC's teachings about them are. They think we're pretty yough on the whole "sin" issue. But just like every other sin, the church is called to respond with the cross. He died for that sin too and they don't deserve Hell more than I do merely because my sins are different (and not as "gross").

[Havoc]

Except you do it in isolation, as though the language were your own. But even Jesus had to use the language of other men.

Oh brother. In isolation as though the language were my own?! Did you bother to look at what you wrote before clicking the post button? Is there a point of any relevance in there? No. It isn't a slam, it isn't praise nor even a neutral ground. It's an utter non-sequiter and an absurd one at that. Deal with the issue. Deal with the words in use. We know what they mean. It seems that you guys just can't get a grip on it. Homosexuality is sin. But I'm sure that isn't "open minded" or "pc" to say. I'd rather be in agreement with scripture than be seen as "open minded" and "pc". I will call it what it is.

[Proud2BAmerican]

And as far as your shot across the bow on interpretation, need I write a book in here by way of quoting the volumes of scripture on the subject?

No, just be up front that it's your personal interpretation of Scripture that is buttressing whatever point you happen to make. And people may differ on a particular interpretation of Scripture.

YOu wrote: I think you could probably quote me the verses, that doesn't mean you understand them.

And please try to leave out inflammatory remarks like this, please. It helps to keep the level of discussion at a polite and civil discourse. And please, by all means, if I write something that is not specifically related to the argument at hand (i.e., if I say something like "And if you don't understand that, well then bubba, you just dont' know Scripture," or "It's as plain as day; if you can't see it, then you're not listening to the Holy Spirit," etc.), please please call me out on it, and I will make amends.

[Proud2BAmerican]

Drinking or not drinking didn't make him less of an alcoholic. Failing to be delivered from it kept him from not being an alcoholic.

So are you saying that if he had stopped drinking, he would not have "been delivered of it"?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I am not attacking. It is things like this that confuse me about OSAS. I thought after you were saved you would want to try and keep the Commandments. It is God's way of working through you

What is so hard to understand, A person who has accepted the free gift of salvation trys to keep the 10 Commandments, does good works, goes to church, tries to live a Christ like life, BECAUSE THEY ARE SAVED, NOT TO GET SAVED.

If someone, say your parents gave you a brand new car. It was yours free and clear. Would you not do maintenacne on that car, change the oils, wash it, etc. TO SHOW YOUR APPRECIATION OF THE FREE GIFT. You did not do this stuff to get the gift, you didn't even have it to do it to. But once the gift was yours you did things as a thank you to your parents.

This is really not a good anaolgy, but it's the best I can do. Is what this analogy doesn't show is that the maintenance we do to, so to speak, is actually the HS working through us, but we submit to the HS promptings. We submit God's will BECAUSE HE SAVED US.

This really is not that hard. I don't know of any OSAS believer who will tell you this gives them a license to do as they please. Quite the reverse. BECAUSE we are saved whenever we do fail to follow the Lord's will we are greived and ask God to forgive us, then go back to allowing the HS to use us. But God is the one who is keeping us saved, we cannot do it, we would fail miserably everytime. God holds on to us is why we stay saved, not us holding on to God.

This is the best I can do.

Becky

[DouglasKC]

Hmmm. I would say that your baptism, if it wasn't done in what I would consider the proper Trinitarian formula, is invalid. I would say that your belief and repentance, as far as I can tell via our present dialogue, are genuine (although, as I mentioned before, I consider your beliefs about the Trinity to be erroneous).

What is a baptism done in the "proper" Trinitarian formula...exactly?

Since I believe that the Holy Spirit is God, your denial of the Holy Spirit as God, in my eyes, constitutes a denial of God.

I don't deny that the spirit is God. The holy spirit is not a seperate God in the Godhead. The Holy Spirit IS God.

[ksen]

The difficulty is that the judgement that your tradition is in conflict with Holy Scripture really means your judgement that your tradition is in conflict with your interpretation of Holy Scripture, which then returns to the question of discernment I raised the post you quote at length. Unless you are very unusual among folk who claim to rely on Holy Scripture alone, this means that you are approaching the text through a modern hermeneutic (post-Rennaisance at least) rather than the hermeneutic of the Church Fathers (pious Christian living in the same culture as the Holy Apostles and Evangelists, and in the first few generations in direct or second hand contact with them). A brief serious examination of Church history will make this clear.

Proud2BAmerican and I were discussing something along these lines a few posts above this. You may be interested in looking them over.

You have used the term "Post-Renaissance Hermeneutics" before. Would you mind defining that for me and/or contrast it with the "hermeneutics of the Church Fathers"? Thanks, because I'm not quite sure I know what you mean by those phrases.

Holy Tradition as understood by the Orthodox, includes the entire organic experience of the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, including that recorded in Holy Scripture and the selection of the canon of Holy Scripture. Unless one regards the Church established by Christ in the gift of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost to be merely a human institition, the Church's tradition is not a "tradition of men" but the continuation of Pentecost in every succeeding generation. I am thus far more comfortable relying on the entirity of Holy Tradition rather than deciding to select only the centerpiece of its written aspect and hoping that I will granted sufficient charisms to get by with that alone.

If you want to think that Christ set up a monolithic church that's fine, but I don't agree with you.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on the importance of the Scriptures and the ability of individual Believers to comprehend them.

-ksen

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

When speaking of the Trinity, and man's inability to understand it, I have been told several different analogies that helps.

The one I like best, is: think of the sun. You have the actual mass that is the sun (God). You have the light from the sun, (Jesus), but it is still the sun, you would say the sun is bright today. Then we have the heat from the sun that we feel (HS), but it is still the sun, the sun is hot today. It's all the sun but the sun has 3 destinct features that are manifest is 3 ways.

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Oh brother.

Man you can say that again! I have been watching the "deep" thoughts of others tonight and can say

.......GET REAL!....ARE YOU NUTS!....ARE YOU HAVING MANHOOD PROBLEMS?....DID YOUR BROTHER JUST COME OUT?....HAS YOUR BRAIN DIED?....DO YOU HAVE A BRAIN?....WILL YOU JUST STOP WITH THE INSANE QUESTIONS....

There now I feel better. :)

BigMack

[Elsie]

Let me ask you this: by what name are we saved?Let me ask you this: by what name are we saved?

---

Good question, and no doubt you're expecting the ones from John.....

 

John 14

 

 1.  "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God ; trust also in me.
 2.  In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
 3.  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
 4.  You know the way to the place where I am going."
 5.  Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
 6.  Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
 7.  If you really knew me, you would know  my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
 8.  Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
 9.  Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'?
 10.  Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
 11.  Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.
 12.  I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
 13.  And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.
 14.  You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
 15.  "If you love me, you will obey what I command.
 16.  And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever--
 17.  the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be  in you.
 18.  I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
 19.  Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
 20.  On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.
 21.  Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
 22.  Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"
 23.  Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
 24.  He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
 25.  "All this I have spoken while still with you.
 26.  But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
 27.  Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
 28.  "You heard me say, `I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
 29.  I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe.
 30.  I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me,
 31.  but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.   "Come now; let us leave.

---

But you will place little weight on these, so let's see what I can find in the OT.............

---

NIV Exodus 15:2
 2.  The LORD is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation. He is my God, and I will praise him, my father's God, and I will exalt him.

 

NIV 2 Samuel 22:2-3
 2.  He said: "The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
 3.  my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn  of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior-- from violent men you save me.

 

NIV 2 Samuel 23:5
 5.  "Is not my house right with God? Has he not made with me an everlasting covenant, arranged and secured in every part? Will he not bring to fruition my salvation and grant me my every desire?

 

NIV 1 Chronicles 16:23
 23.  Sing to the LORD, all the earth; proclaim his salvation day after day.

 

NIV 2 Chronicles 6:41
 41.  "Now arise, O LORD God, and come to your resting place, you and the ark of your might. May your priests, O LORD God, be clothed with salvation, may your saints rejoice in your goodness.

 

NIV Psalms 9:13-14
 13.  O LORD, see how my enemies persecute me! Have mercy and lift me up from the gates of death,
 14.  that I may declare your praises in the gates of the Daughter of Zion and there rejoice in your salvation.

 

NIV Psalms 13:3-5
 3.  Look on me and answer, O LORD my God. Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death;
 4.  my enemy will say, "I have overcome him," and my foes will rejoice when I fall.
 5.  But I trust in your unfailing love; my heart rejoices in your salvation.

 

NIV Psalms 14:7
 7.  Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion! When the LORD restores the fortunes of his people, let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!

 

NIV Psalms 18:2
 2.  The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn  of my salvation, my stronghold.

 

NIV Psalms 27:1
 1.  The LORD is my light and my salvation-- whom shall I fear? The LORD is the stronghold of my life-- of whom shall I be afraid?

 

NIV Psalms 28:8
 8.  The LORD is the strength of his people, a fortress of salvation for his anointed one.

 

NIV Psalms 35:1-3

 

 1.  Contend, O LORD, with those who contend with me; fight against those who fight against me.
 2.  Take up shield and buckler; arise and come to my aid.
 3.  Brandish spear and javelin against those who pursue me. Say to my soul, "I am your salvation."

 

NIV Psalms 35:9
 9.  Then my soul will rejoice in the LORD and delight in his salvation.

 

NIV Psalms 37:39
 39.  The salvation of the righteous comes from the LORD; he is their stronghold in time of trouble.

 

NIV Psalms 40:9-10
 9.  I proclaim righteousness in the great assembly; I do not seal my lips, as you know, O LORD.
 10.  I do not hide your righteousness in my heart; I speak of your faithfulness and salvation. I do not conceal your love and your truth from the great assembly.

 

NIV Psalms 40:16
 16.  But may all who seek you rejoice and be glad in you; may those who love your salvation always say, "The LORD be exalted!"

 

NIV Psalms 50:22-23
 22.  "Consider this, you who forget God, or I will tear you to pieces, with none to rescue:
 23.  He who sacrifices thank offerings honors me, and he prepares the way so that I may show him  the salvation of God."

 

NIV Psalms 51:10-12
 10.  Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
 11.  Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.
 12.  Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.

 

NIV Psalms 53:6
 6.  Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion! When God restores the fortunes of his people, let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!

 

NIV Psalms 62:1

 1.  My soul finds rest in God alone; my salvation comes from him.

 

 

NIV Psalms 62:5-7
 5.  Find rest, O my soul, in God alone; my hope comes from him. 
 6.  He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.
 7.  My salvation and my honor depend on God ; he is my mighty rock, my refuge.

 

NIV Psalms 67:1-2

 1.  May God be gracious to us and bless us and make his face shine upon us, Selah
 2.  that your ways may be known on earth, your salvation among all nations

 

NIV Psalms 69:13
 13.  But I pray to you, O LORD, in the time of your favor; in your great love, O God, answer me with your sure salvation.

 

NIV Psalms 69:29
 29.  I am in pain and distress; may your salvation, O God, protect me.

 

NIV Psalms 70:4
 4.  But may all who seek you rejoice and be glad in you; may those who love your salvation always say, "Let God be exalted!"

 

NIV Psalms 71:15
 15.  My mouth will tell of your righteousness, of your salvation all day long, though I know not its measure.

 

NIV Psalms 74:12
 12.  But you, O God, are my king from of old; you bring salvation upon the earth.

 

NIV Psalms 85:7
 7.  Show us your unfailing love, O LORD, and grant us your salvation.

 

NIV Psalms 85:9
 9.  Surely his salvation is near those who fear him, that his glory may dwell in our land.

 

NIV Psalms 91:14-16
 14.  "Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.
 15.  He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him.
 16.  With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation."

 

NIV Psalms 95:1

 1.  Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.

 

NIV Psalms 96:2
 2.  Sing to the LORD, praise his name; proclaim his salvation day after day.

 

NIV Psalms 98:1-3
 1.  Sing to the LORD a new song, for he has done marvelous things; his right hand and his holy arm have worked salvation for him.
 2.  The LORD has made his salvation known and revealed his righteousness to the nations.
 3.  He has remembered his love and his faithfulness to the house of Israel; all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

 

NIV Psalms 118:14
 14.  The LORD is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation.

 

NIV Psalms 118:21-23
 21.  I will give you thanks, for you answered me; you have become my salvation.
 22.  The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone;
 23.  the LORD has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes.

 

NIV Psalms 119:41-42
 41.  May your unfailing love come to me, O LORD, your salvation according to your promise;
 42.  then I will answer the one who taunts me, for I trust in your word.

 

NIV Psalms 119:81
 81.  My soul faints with longing for your salvation, but I have put my hope in your word.

 

NIV Psalms 119:123
 123.  My eyes fail, looking for your salvation, looking for your righteous promise.

 

NIV Psalms 119:155
155.  salvation is far from the wicked, for they do not seek out your decrees.

 

NIV Psalms 119:166
 166.  I wait for your salvation, O LORD, and I follow your commands.

 

NIV Psalms 119:174
 174.  I long for your salvation, O LORD, and your law is my delight.

 

NIV Psalms 132:11-18
 11.  The LORD swore an oath to David, a sure oath that he will not revoke: "One of your own descendants I will place on your throne--
 12.  if your sons keep my covenant and the statutes I teach them, then their sons will sit on your throne for ever and ever."
 13.  For the LORD has chosen Zion, he has desired it for his dwelling:
 14.  "This is my resting place for ever and ever; here I will sit enthroned, for I have desired it--
 15.  I will bless her with abundant provisions; her poor will I satisfy with food.
 16.  I will clothe her priests with salvation, and her saints will ever sing for joy.
 17.  "Here I will make a horn  grow for David and set up a lamp for my anointed one.
 18.  I will clothe his enemies with shame, but the crown on his head will be resplendent."

 

NIV Psalms 149:4
4.  For the LORD takes delight in his people; he crowns the humble with salvation.

 

NIV Isaiah 12:2
 2.  Surely God is my salvation; I will trust and not be afraid. The LORD, the LORD, is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation."

 

NIV Isaiah 25:9
 9.  In that day they will say, "Surely this is our God; we trusted in him, and he saved us. This is the LORD, we trusted in him; let us rejoice and be glad in his salvation."

 

NIV Isaiah 26:18
 18.  We were with child, we writhed in pain, but we gave birth to wind. We have not brought salvation to the earth; we have not given birth to people of the world.

 

NIV Isaiah 30:15
 15.  This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says: "In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it.

 

NIV Isaiah 33:2
2.  O LORD, be gracious to us; we long for you. Be our strength every morning, our salvation in time of distress.

 

NIV Isaiah 45:8
 8.  "You heavens above, rain down righteousness; let the clouds shower it down. Let the earth open wide, let salvation spring up, let righteousness grow with it; I, the LORD, have created it.

 

NIV Isaiah 45:17
 17.  But Israel will be saved by the LORD with an everlasting salvation; you will never be put to shame or disgraced, to ages everlasting.

 

NIV Isaiah 46:12-13
 12.  Listen to me, you stubborn-hearted, you who are far from righteousness.
 13.  I am bringing my righteousness near, it is not far away; and my salvation will not be delayed. I will grant salvation to Zion, my splendor to Israel.

 

NIV Isaiah 49:5-6
 5.  And now the LORD says-- he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD and my God has been my strength--
 6.  he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."

 

NIV Isaiah 51:4-6
 4.  "Listen to me, my people; hear me, my nation: The law will go out from me; my justice will become a light to the nations.
 5.  My righteousness draws near speedily, my salvation is on the way, and my arm will bring justice to the nations. The islands will look to me and wait in hope for my arm.
 6.  Lift up your eyes to the heavens, look at the earth beneath; the heavens will vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like a garment and its inhabitants die like flies. But my salvation will last forever, my righteousness will never fail.

 

NIV Isaiah 52:5-7
 5.  "And now what do I have here?" declares the LORD. "For my people have been taken away for nothing, and those who rule them mock, "  declares the LORD. "And all day long my name is constantly blasphemed.
 6.  Therefore my people will know my name; therefore in that day they will know that it is I who foretold it. Yes, it is I."
 7.  How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim peace, who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who say to Zion, "Your God reigns!"

 

 

NIV Isaiah 52:1-15
 1.  Awake, awake, O Zion, clothe yourself with strength. Put on your garments of splendor, O Jerusalem, the holy city. The uncircumcised and defiled will not enter you again.
 2.  Shake off your dust; rise up, sit enthroned, O Jerusalem. Free yourself from the chains on your neck, O captive Daughter of Zion.
 3.  For this is what the LORD says: "You were sold for nothing, and without money you will be redeemed."
 4.  For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "At first my people went down to Egypt to live; lately, Assyria has oppressed them.
 5.  "And now what do I have here?" declares the LORD. "For my people have been taken away for nothing, and those who rule them mock, "  declares the LORD. "And all day long my name is constantly blasphemed.
 6.  Therefore my people will know my name; therefore in that day they will know that it is I who foretold it. Yes, it is I."
 7.  How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim peace, who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who say to Zion, "Your God reigns!"
 8.  Listen! Your watchmen lift up their voices; together they shout for joy. When the LORD returns to Zion, they will see it with their own eyes.
 9.  Burst into songs of joy together, you ruins of Jerusalem, for the LORD has comforted his people, he has redeemed Jerusalem.
 10.  The LORD will lay bare his holy arm in the sight of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God.
 11.  Depart, depart, go out from there! Touch no unclean thing! Come out from it and be pure, you who carry the vessels of the LORD.
 12.  But you will not leave in haste or go in flight; for the LORD will go before you, the God of Israel will be your rear guard.
13.  See, my servant will act wisely ; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
 14.  Just as there were many who were appalled at him -- his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness--
 15.  so will he sprinkle many nations, and kings will shut their mouths because of him. For what they were not told, they will see, and what they have not heard, they will understand.

 

 

NIV Isaiah 56:1

 1.  This is what the LORD says: "Maintain justice and do what is right, for my salvation is close at hand and my righteousness will soon be revealed.

 

NIV Isaiah 59:20
 20.  "The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,"  declares the LORD.

 

NIV Isaiah 63:1-8
 1.  Who is this coming from Edom, from Bozrah, with his garments stained crimson? Who is this, robed in splendor, striding forward in the greatness of his strength? "It is I, speaking in righteousness, mighty to save."
 2.  Why are your garments red, like those of one treading the winepress?
 3.  "I have trodden the winepress alone; from the nations no one was with me. I trampled them in my anger and trod them down in my wrath; their blood spattered my garments, and I stained all my clothing.
 4.  For the day of vengeance was in my heart, and the year of my redemption has come.
 5.  I looked, but there was no one to help, I was appalled that no one gave support; so my own arm worked salvation for me, and my own wrath sustained me.
 6.  I trampled the nations in my anger; in my wrath I made them drunk and poured their blood on the ground."
 7.  I will tell of the kindnesses of the LORD, the deeds for which he is to be praised, according to all the LORD has done for us-- yes, the many good things he has done for the house of Israel, according to his compassion and many kindnesses.
 8.  He said, "Surely they are my people, sons who will not be false to me"; and so he became their Savior.

 

NIV Jeremiah 3:23
 23.  Surely the [idolatrous] commotion on the hills and mountains is a deception; surely in the LORD our God is the salvation of Israel.

 

NIV Lamentations 3:25-26
 25.  The LORD is good to those whose hope is in him, to the one who seeks him;
 26.  it is good to wait quietly for the salvation of the LORD.

 

NIV Jonah 2:9
 9.  But I, with a song of thanksgiving, will sacrifice to you. What I have vowed I will make good. salvation comes from the LORD."

 

 

 

NIV Luke 1:64-80
 64.  Immediately his mouth was opened and his tongue was loosed, and he began to speak, praising God.
 65.  The neighbors were all filled with awe, and throughout the hill country of Judea people were talking about all these things.
 66.  Everyone who heard this wondered about it, asking, "What then is this child going to be?" For the Lord's hand was with him.
 67.  His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied:
 68.  "Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, because he has come and has redeemed his people.
 69.  He has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David
 70.  (as he said through his holy prophets of long ago),
 71.  salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us--
 72.  to show mercy to our fathers and to remember his holy covenant,
 73.  the oath he swore to our father Abraham:
 74.  to rescue us from the hand of our enemies, and to enable us to serve him without fear
 75.  in holiness and righteousness before him all our days.
 76.  And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High; for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him,
 77.  to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins,
 78.  because of the tender mercy of our God, by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven
 79.  to shine on those living in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the path of peace."
 80.  And the child grew and became strong in spirit; and he lived in the desert until he appeared publicly to Israel.

 

 

[Elsie]

So..... who IS this LORD?

.....this Lord?

---

And what IS His Name?

[Proud2BAmerican]

I don't deny that the spirit is God. The holy spirit is not a seperate God in the Godhead. The Holy Spirit IS God.

Then perhaps we aren't as far apart (if at all), as I first surmised. Please read the following link for a decent explanation of the Catholic belief about the Holy Trinity:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/trinity.htm

Also, the following is from the Tridentine Rite Mass (The Preface of the Holy Trinity):

It is indeed fitting and right, our duty and our salvation,
always and everywhere to give thanks
to You, Lord, Holy Father, almighty and eternal God,
who with Your only-begotten Son and the Holy Spirit are one God, one Lord:
Not in the oneness of a single person, but three persons in one single essence.
For what we believe from your revelation concerning Your glory,
that also we believe of Your Son and of the Holy Spirit
without difference or distinction;
so that when we affirm the true and everlasting Godhead
we worship three distinct persons in a oneness of Being
and with equality of majesty.
And that God the angels praise
with the archangels, cherubim, and seraphs,
ceaselessly singing with one voice: [Sanctus]

Would you agree with these sentiments?