The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
TNS Archives

[SoothingDave]

"We can lose our salvation by refusing it, by our actions. We can re-gain it..."

Don't you see that what you're saying is that salvation is in your hands. That you are responsible for your own salvation, which means that Christ's work on the Cross was insufficient.

I am so sorry. I will refrain from using first person pronouns in the future.

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Another instance of Catholics not being able to agree on doctrine or scripture intrepretation. I thought your pope was infallible.

BTW, I was told that on these threads after I used that verse to show that sins, or not doing God's will would not cause us to loose salvation, just rewards.

Becky

[SoothingDave]

You do not choose God, He chooses you. God loved Jacob but hated Esau before either was born

Are you sure you mean "hate"? My God doesn't "hate" anybody.

And since you are here, would you say that Scripture is the primary authority in determining what is true or false about God? Established Churches or other Christians are wrong if they contradict Scripture? And that the Holy Spirit guides you in understanding scripture?

SD

[JohnnyM]

"Isn't this an example of our Lord welcoming us home after falling away? Is this a contradiction to Hebrews 6:4-6?"

I think both interpretation you have of these passages would lead you to that conclusion. It did for me. I grappled with Hebrews 6 for a long time, but the Holy Spirit in His mercy, showed me that these passages don't contradict but rather compliment each other. There are only 2 logical conclusions to Hebrews 6. One is that once you fall away you can never come back. Never be saved again. Which we all know is not true. Even you guys believe that you can restore yourself to salvation. The other logical conclusion is that falling away is impossible and this is why, becuase Christ cannot die again on the Cross. His sacrifice is perfect. If you could fall away, then you are saying that what Christ did on the Cross was insufficient, so why goes through this vicious cycle of falling away and re-sacrificing Christ on the Cross, or as Hebrews so wonderfully puts it "Since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."

JM

[SoothingDave]

Another instance of Catholics not being able to agree on doctrine or scripture intrepretation. I thought your pope was infallible.

Becky, I think it comes down to what you said. You said Purgatory was "based on" that passage. That is what allend objected to. It's not like we read the Bible and said, look here, there must be a Purgatory. The passage from Corinthians you cited shows that there is a Purgatory, but the belief is older than the Scripture. Hence saying it is "based on" it is untrue.

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

(Becky, this is definitely not "purgatory." I don't know who told you that. And whether it is literally true or a parable doesn't seem to make a difference.)

Some one on these threads said it was purgatory. And it does make a difference wether true or parable. Think about that Barna Poll. There are alot of people who do not believe in literal hell. Catholics and Baptists alike, I am sorry to say.

It also is a lesson on learning to "rightly divide the word."

Becky

[Joyful Wisdom]

Sorry Mr. Old Reggie did not mean to imply it was you. Throughout this tome, interpretations (usually by Catholics) that are rational but not necessarily true are dismissed for relying on more then just the words in the Bible. For example the whole Jesus' brother debate. The Catholic interpretation is reasonable (not the same thing as being true) but dismissed, because 'brother means brother'. The Catholic interpretation is consistant with Sola Scriptura. Again sorry if I implied actions on your point that is untrue.

[JohnnyM]

Purgatory is one of the following:
1)Purgatory is a place for the saved to "work out" their salvation.
2)Purgatory is a place for the unsaved to get saved.
3)Both
4)None of the above

JM

[Joyful Wisdom]

Madam Becky I would not put literal first on the list since without context (both historical and in the text) and understanding of the vocabulary used, literal meaning can be way off.

[OLD REGGIE]

OK, friends and neighbors. Would you consider this a fair story illustrating Sola Scriptura in action? Mr C didn't just blindly believe the first thing he thought, he sought out counsel from Church and Christians. He entertained other ideas. But at the end of the day he was compelled to believe what Scripture said. To him. Through his inspired reading and study.

No this isn't a fair story of Sola Scriptura. It is a fair story of what you want to force on everyone else. It is a fair story of your bullheadedness. It is a fair story of what Mr. C thought and did. I'm afraid Mr. C is on his own.

This is a "fair" description of Sola Scriptura:

"Actually, calling it "Sola Scriptura" is a bit of a misnomer, because it is not a doctrine which teaches that we believe that there are not other authorities, nor that they have no value or place. Rather, it means that other authorities must be subordinate to the Word of God. The phrase "Sola scriptura" implies several things. First, that the Scriptures are a direct revelation from God, and as such, are His Authoritative Word. It is also a term which illustrates that the scriptures are all that is necessary for Church faith and practice today. Not only that the scriptures are sufficient, but that they also are the ultimate and final court of appeal on all doctrinal matters. Because however good and faithful a Church leader may be in giving his guidance, all the fathers, teachers, popes, and councils, are still fallible. The only infallible "source" for truth is the scriptures. Besides God Himself, Only His Words (the Scriptures alone), are infallible."

By Tony Warren
The Mountain Retreat!
------------------------------------------------------------

I, for one, am through discussing Sola Scriptura with you!

Next subject:

I will invent a fanciful definition of "Magisterium" and hold you to my definition. Fair?

[dignan3]

Well, D-fendr, I had almost finished answering this question when I somehow deleted it! Now I get to start over.

When I write long posts, I use a seperate HTML editor so I can save my work and then I paste it into the Post Reply box.

The editor I use is the free 1^st Page 2000. Check it out and you will be spared unneeded aggravation, I guarantee it.

Pray for John Paul II

[JohnnyM]

""Actually, calling it "Sola Scriptura" is a bit of a misnomer, because it is not a doctrine which teaches that we believe that there are not other authorities, nor that they have no value or place. Rather, it means that other authorities must be subordinate to the Word of God. The phrase "Sola scriptura" implies several things. First, that the Scriptures are a direct revelation from God, and as such, are His Authoritative Word. It is also a term which illustrates that the scriptures are all that is necessary for Church faith and practice today. Not only that the scriptures are sufficient, but that they also are the ultimate and final court of appeal on all doctrinal matters. Because however good and faithful a Church leader may be in giving his guidance, all the fathers, teachers, popes, and councils, are still fallible. The only infallible "source" for truth is the scriptures. Besides God Himself, Only His Words (the Scriptures alone), are infallible."

I am in 100% agreement with that statement. Sola Scriptura is not subjective (as SD and most RCs believe) but objective.

JM

[SoothingDave]

Purgatory is one of the following:
1)Purgatory is a place for the saved to "work out" their salvation.
2)Purgatory is a place for the unsaved to get saved.
3)Both
4)None of the above

I'll take "4," Regis. Final Answer.

Purgatory is a state where the "saved" (those destined for Heaven) are purified or "purged" of the remnants of their selfish, un-Godly selves. This purgation is necessary before entrance to Heaven, as nothign unclean can come into the presence of God. (Think of the Isaiah passage where the angel uses a hot coal to "purify" Isaiah's lips.)

If our goal in life is to use the power of Christ to "Become perfect, as God is perfect," we can not all acheive this goal while on earth. So our "perfection" is completed on the way to Heaven. The power of Christ acheives all.

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I wish I could go back and find to post. I know that what was posted after I quoted the verse, (I'm thinking, but could be wrong that it was Arthur, remember him) was, "do you know that is a verse we base purgatory on." I remember because the comeback surprised me and I went back and read the whole book to make sure I had the verse in context.

Becky

[Joyful Wisdom]

Sir, thanks for the welcome. Sorry if I missed your point. It seemed to be degenerating into another discussion of what Sola Scriptura means.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Do you believe that purgatory is a place of suffering?

Becky

[SoothingDave]

It is also a term which illustrates that the scriptures are all that is necessary for Church faith and practice today. Not only that the scriptures are sufficient, but that they also are the ultimate and final court of appeal on all doctrinal matters. Because however good and faithful a Church leader may be in giving his guidance, all the fathers, teachers, popes, and councils, are still fallible. The only infallible "source" for truth is the scriptures.

How is this different from what Mr C did? I am not being "bullheaded" on purpose, I am trying to understand how Sola Scriptura really works in the life of a Christian. Didn't Mr C use Scripture as "the final court of appeal"? How is what I wrote different from what you wrote?

If you don't wish to discuss this anymore perhaps someone will answer me.

SD

[Joyful Wisdom]

Mr. JohnnyM, I believe the verse is saying that Jesus' death is the road to salvation, if you turn away from that, do not look for any other method because God is not giving anymore chances. All roads are closed but one.

[JHavard]

Please, I would like a response on a question that I think is important.

How many of us, believe God already knows whether or not we will be in his kingdom?

Yes or No is fine, or a comment if you feel like it, but I do need a majority response. Thank You in advance. JH

Please respond!

[JohnnyM]

Im curious as to your interpretion of Hebrews 6?? That interpretation will have basis on the idea of purgatory, working out salvation, and a grace-meter.

JM