The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[JmyBryan]

Do you believe Constantine was a Christian?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Those that are "saved" are the exact opposite. No matter what they do it is counted as "good." The actual consequences of their free choices have been removed.

Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying this statement is dead wrong. Just because we are saved is not a license to go out and do what ever we want and it is good. Explain!

Becky

[SoothingDave]

when would you know that your grace life meter is out??

By an empty feeling inside. It is this which tugs at people and which is the thing which drunks and druggies and other addicts eventually come face-to-face with.

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

LOL, I'm sure we'll still be here:)

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

But this is basing your salvation on FEELINGS, and feelings can trick you. Salvation has nothing to do with feelings.

Becky

[SoothingDave]

Those that are "saved" are the exact opposite. No matter what they do it is counted as "good." The actual consequences of their free choices have been removed.

Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying this statement is dead wrong. Just because we are saved is not a license to go out and do what ever we want and it is good. Explain!

I know that being "saved" is not a license to sin. But what I am saying is that if God is seeing Christ "covering" us then any choice we make is unimportant to our salvation. If no matter what we do, we can not lose our salvation then we are no longer free.

SD

[SoothingDave]

But this is basing your salvation on FEELINGS, and feelings can trick you. Salvation has nothing to do with feelings.

Sounds like something we would say. You guys always tend to have such hearfelt emotional moments when you got "saved." Anyway, I was asked how you would know you were out of grace and I answered. I didn't say feelings will save you, but they are a good indication (not infallible, but good) of your spiritual state.

If you're not delusional, that is.

SD

[JWinNC]

"Isn't this insistence on eternal security just the mirror opposite of the Calvinstic "Free" Will?"

I won't address Calvinism VS Arminianism, but I do believe in free will. You will note that I did not use the words "eternal security." Eternal security can be a dangerous concept if not properly understood. Free will and eternal security are not opposites.

Man can do good and man can do bad; that is our choice, but Salvation is from the Lord. We can change our minds, but we cannot change his. God does not "play" with salvation. He does not give it and then withdraw it. If his Grace is given then it is permanent. The Big Guy does not make mistakes.

Peace,
JWinNC

[SoothingDave]

Becky, don't read that as my saying you are delusional. That's not what I meant.

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

If no matter what we do, we can not lose our salvation then we are no longer free.

We do not lose our salvation when we sin, but we do loose our fellowship with God, we loose our closeness to him. There are consequences to all sin. But not lose of salvation. If Sara grows up to be a real hellion, she will still be your child, you may be angry with her, you may not be close to her, but she is still your child, just as we are children of God.

Becky

[Pelayo]

If you're not delusional, that is.

Enter human reason and logic, we use them to understand our feelings. If I fell emotional detached, empty, or laking love and hope, I'm in a bad state, because I'm missing something I was created to have.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Oh but I am:) LOL.

Becky

[SoothingDave]

If I fell emotional detached, empty, or laking love and hope, I'm in a bad state, because I'm missing something I was created to have.

Good point. We were created in Eden "full of grace," and inner feelings we have, wants and yearnings are indicators of this lack of grace, of completion we now have.

SD

[SoothingDave]

You will note that I did not use the words "eternal security." Eternal security can be a dangerous concept if not properly understood.

Isn't being assured of your salvation, that you can not lose it, "eternal security"?

SD

[SoothingDave]

If Sara grows up to be a real hellion, she will still be your child, you may be angry with her, you may not be close to her, but she is still your child, just as we are children of God.

But if Sarah disowns me, avoids me, wants nothing to do with me?

SD

[the808bass]

If it is a works based theology to assert that one can throw away one's inheiretance then I am gulity. If it is a works based theology to assert that our actions have consequences on our souls then I am guilty. If it is a works based theology to assert that we need to make daily decisions to obey God, that we are not robots, but free moral agents, then so be it.

I agree with all your statements. That was not what I was addressing. Your idea that grace does not cover us is what I was addressing. If grace does not cover our sins, what does? If our sins are not atoned for, what has been accomplished by Christ's sacrifice? Do our sins "go away" or "fade" as we are transformed?

We treasure our store of grace by avoiding occasions of sin and avoiding sin. If you take your fine silver and leave it out in the rain to be tarnished, this is not "treasuring" it.

I agree that our actions have consequences. I do not see good actions as accomplishing anything of great merit (or even great favor). Our righteousness is as "filthy rags." The best we can do does not even approach the holiness of God. So while our negative actions can show us to a removal from grace, our positive actions do not place us any higher on the "scale" of grace. When we accept the gift of faith in Christ, we have been declared free from sin. That is one aspect. But, we will also strive towards that perfection which is found in Christ. That is the good works that are prepared for us. They are an outgrowth, the by-product of salvation and regeneration. They change nothing about the amount of grace that we have.

[the808bass]

But if Sarah disowns me, avoids me, wants nothing to do with me?

There are light years of difference in Sarah wanting nothing to do with you and Sarah disappointing you or failing you.

[JWinNC]

"Isn't being assured of your salvation, that you can not lose it, "eternal security"?"

No. Two different things. I can be sure that God's grace is permanent and forever, but that does not mean I am assured of receiving it. I have accepted Christ and I believe I am saved, but I'm not one to be completely assured of it until my race is run and my life on earth is done. I know God's promise is true, but I'm also highly motivated to do right and to stay on the path.

IMHO,
JWinNC

[SoothingDave]

Your idea that grace does not cover us is what I was addressing. If grace does not cover our sins, what does? If our sins are not atoned for, what has been accomplished by Christ's sacrifice? Do our sins "go away" or "fade" as we are transformed?

Maybe we have a terminology problem. (I know, imagine that!) When you say "cover" I imagine that the sin remains but is covered or "blocked from view." Maybe this isn't what you mean? Grace does more than "cover" sin, it blots it out of existence. It is as if it never was. It no longer exists.

And on top of that, grace destroys that within me that inclines me to sin again. Gets spots out, prevents future spots. Just like a fine laundry detergent.

We treasure our store of grace by avoiding occasions of sin and avoiding sin. If you take your fine silver and leave it out in the rain to be tarnished, this is not "treasuring" it.

I agree that our actions have consequences. I do not see good actions as accomplishing anything of great merit (or even great favor). Our righteousness is as "filthy rags." The best we can do does not even approach the holiness of God. So while our negative actions can show us to a removal from grace, our positive actions do not place us any higher on the "scale" of grace.

I agree. Except that the sacraments are instituted to provide us with grace when we need it. It is not our actions or good works which build us up into a "holy" people, but the continuing gift of grace and our assenting to cooperate with it.

When we accept the gift of faith in Christ, we have been declared free from sin. That is one aspect. But, we will also strive towards that perfection which is found in Christ. That is the good works that are prepared for us. They are an outgrowth, the by-product of salvation and regeneration. They change nothing about the amount of grace that we have.

Again, this is where we differ. There are degrees of grace. What does "show us to a removal from grace" mean?

SD

[JHavard]

Proclaiming that Christ is your shepherd is of no practical consequence if, in fact, your doctrines, pastors, Bible interpretations, practices, etc., are determined by majority vote. Face it, the sheep are the ultimate authority in your church.

If Christ is the only shepherd, he takes his sheep where he will, and because you don’t understand the workings of the Holy Spirit doesn’t mean you have the answers. Your pope and your attorneys lead you about where they will, and you refuse to allow the Holy Spirit to get involved in your Church.

It works about the same in most other Protestant denominations. Isn't democracy wonderful?

Again, it certainly is, and may I remind you, you live in a country that was founded on the same principal, and since you hate the diversity and freedom of the Churches, you must also hate the diversity and freedom of this country.

You seem to prefer a monarchy, well show me one that you would prefer to this democracy. I am tired of the same old cliches, about our diversity and the chaos you seem to see, well, to an army of robots, I suppose anyone not in step with them would appear to be disorderly and chaotic, but thank God your little army will not judge us.

You mean kind of like the Apostles, and other men designated by them like Timothy and Titus, told the early Christians what to believe?

Tomothy and Titus were designated by Paul, and Paul was designated by Christ, not through the 12 apostles, but through the Holy Spirit, and the prophets and teachers at Antioch, who laid their hands on them.

This ended the apostolic monarchy, when the 12 were bypassed by Christ, and the Holy Spirit became involved in the future of the Christian Church.

Have you ever asked yourselves why with 12 apostles who had been with Christ, why did he have to go out side of them, to find a man to go to the Gentiles?