Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Hey, yeah! I bet you can't get a decent bagel in Tulsa.
BTW, Mack, I was technically wrong in my earlier post. I wouldn't need to study for the rabbinate to move to Tulsa and start a conservative or orthodox synagogue. You don't need a rabbi to lead services; all you need is a minyan (The quorum necessary to recite certain prayers, consisting of ten adult Jewish men) and a place to meet. But if I were to do something like this, I would want to have the formal training first. Plus, I'd need to convince the lovely and gracious mrs. angelo that Tulsa was a nice place to retire. If she could go riding with Becky, I bet I could convince her! ;o)
Yeah, this is from the guy who was going to tell the other RC's to cool it when they got out of line, and we're supposed to just accept it on his word. Funny I don't see any, even mild rebukes for this way over-the-top personal attack (from RC's).
Sure, sure, c'mon up! Bet my kids would drive you out of here within a week. ;o)
Becky
Reserve a seat? At most, you could just drop by at whatever time services are scheduled. Or you could call the rabbi and ask when would be a good time to go. I'm sure most rabbis would be quite welcoming to those who were genuinely interested in sitting in on a service.
Christ promised the Holy Spirit to His church and it is the Spirit that perserves the church from error.
Your advocating your own point of view and opinions are like rear ends, everyone has one...while calling into question the legitimate spiritual authorities established by Jesus Christ himself.
And I certainly don't disagree with “I can do all things through Christ, who strengtheneth me."
I'm really not disagreeing with the idea of perfectly following the ten commandments or never sinning, or the fallacy of man achieving perfection.
And, I think it is very clear that Jesus knew this and did not expect this of us — perfection.
But, I think what He was here for; what his incarnation was; the foundation of all we have of his teaching is Truth. Reality. That "if we see these things, the Kingdom of God is now."
"These things" are Jesus's authority in life, time, our life, our time, our human-ness, our true relationship with God and each other.
He summed this up as "love God with all your heart and mind and soul; and your neighbor as yourself." This is the attitude resulting from seeing the truth. It is not something we believe we should do; as I said before, anymore than we choose there is one sun in our solar system.
If these commandments seem impossible to us, or take an inordinate amount of will we feel incapable of it is not will we are lacking, it is Truth. We think the truth is we are separate and what is good for us, what is good for God, and what is good for our neighbor are opposed.
We lose our faith when we believe that someone can do harm and wrong and "win." We are not living in reality when we think we can love our self more than our neighbor. We are not living in reality when we think we can be forgiven without forgiving. All of this is impossible in reality; Jesus lived reality and truth..
If we see the Truth we love God and our neighbor as ourself. Not to be rewarded or to do something "good" for our self, but because in reality there is no boundary between us. This boundary is the illusion that causes us to try to gain something for ourself at another's expense. The illusion that WE create reality by our will and gain by enforcing our reality.
But this isn't the way the universe is. This isn't realilty. In true realilty: We cannot hate another without hating ourself; we cannot hate God without hating ourself; and we cannot be truly alive in the kosmos as it is without being filled with it's substance: love and compassion. ("I came that you may have life and that more abundantly.")
This is the true existence of all that is as God created it; God is good.
Remember Jesus last prayer to his Father?
"John 17 My prayer for all of them is that they will be one, just as you and I are one, Father--that just as you are in me and I am in you, so they will be in us, and the world will believe you sent me.Jesus was not asking us to become perfect in every action, but to see the Truth. If we Christians believe anything it is that Jesus was Truth and that Truth can be known. With grace, we can know this and Jesus's prayer is answered in us. The boundaries become the places we are joined.
"I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are--
in them and you in me, all being perfected into one. Then the world will know that you sent me and will understand that you love them as much as you love me.
From here we can still stumble, even as we grow in spirit, we may stumble less, but still stumble, but seeing the Truth of Jesus, we still, through all our faults and repentance — we still have our finite imperfect aspect — we still love God with all our heart and mind and soul, and our neighbor as ourself.
This is not a work or perfect adherence to the ten commandments; it is awakening to the true reality, being born again.
thank you for your reply and for discussing this with someone I know you have many disagreeements with.
Dave, I think there has been enough "silliness" from both sides of this "Theotokos" debate. One side insisting that Mother of God is the correct term while admitting that the true and correct meaning is "bearer of God". The other side says that it has some hidden sinister meaning, or possible meaning (in Havoc's case). But even Havoc admitted that it could mean "bearer of God". If you guys didn't hate him so much you would have seen that and accepted that as a possible place of agreement.
Here's the bottom line for me on this debate, I don't think it's necessary to invent this non-Biblical term in order to understand what the Bible clearly teaches. But if you must insist on it, I have no problem with "God bearer" or "bearer of God". It avoids the baggage of "mother of God" and the possible misunderstanding therein, while getting the point across. Maybe we can all (or at least most of us) agree that on this one thing. But I'm probably dreaming, you guys would probably rather use this as a club to beat your opponents with, maybe the NC's would too. I'm not looking to compromise my principles, I just can't see why any Christian would object to calling Mary the bearer of God.
Give me scripture next time that has something to do with lent.
Christ promised the Holy Spirit to His church and it is the Spirit that perserves the church from error.
Christ promised the Holy Spirit to anyone that would receive it.
Your advocating your own point of view and opinions are like rear ends, everyone has one...
Is that why you're offering yours? Forgive me, I thought this was an internet message board. while calling into question the legitimate spiritual authorities established by Jesus Christ himself.
Says you.
Change that to "receive Him".
I haven't decided yet. Last Sunday, my mate and I looked at each other in church and mouthed "It's almost Ash Wednesday!"
Last year I gave up smoking. It's been a really long year.
Here's what I've been considering: I have lost a great deal of my regular meditation/prayer. For me, this time is a great help; for some it's no big deal. But, I've gotten in the habit of waking up and lazing around the first hour. I notice this makes me less conscious of God's presence throughout the day, and I go downhill when that happens, worse for me and everyone I'm around.
So I'm thinking of using lent to build the habit of a morning ritual leading to contemplation time. I know from past experience, I better be sure before I decide something for Lent.
By the way, Lent does not have to be a negative thing you give up, it can also be a positive thing you add.
Anyway, that's what I'm considering (Giving up ice cream was easier - I don't have it in the house anymore.) Don't ask about chocolate.
Anyway, I'm sure that's more than you wanted to know, I appreciate you asking. Maybe you could claim coffee as an early start on Lent.
{^_^}
best wishes…
Just give it right back to them.
"angelo, this is the Inquisition. We have reason to suspect that you are a baptized Catholic who is practicing Judaism. May we see your papers?"
"You don't need to see my papers."
"We don't need to see your papers."
"I'm not the apostate you're looking for."
"You're not the apostate we're looking for."
"Move along, move along."
"Move along, move along."
I was kinda kidding, I really thought the whole place would go silent if a stranger just walked in.
I think, as part of your exercise, me going to a synagogue would be too cheap. Don't know how quite to explain it, but I wouldn't be there to do much but observe once, and I don't think I'd understand much of what was going on. All I know of the observance is from Schindler's list and snatches of tv. I dunno, it doesn't feel right for this purpose. I did once check into converting (loooong story), and under those circumstances, I think I would feel better.
I'd like to see an Orthodox mass, but there's none anywhere nearby, I've been to Baptist, Methodist, and Lutheran, so I'm thinking of AOG or perhaps Unity where my sister goes. That may qualify for the exercise under the Old Reggie clause.
Naw. That would be cheating and then I'd lose my blessing.
There are many things, including spiritual things, that exist whether you have seen them or not. A person who declines to accept their existence is not working on the basis of sound reason, but on "blind faith," and someone who insists nothing exists beyond what his senses can detect--particularly someone who rejects out of hand the supernatural--might be called out of sync with reality.
A man who rejects the supernatural is like a physician who rejects bacteria. You begin to think he isn't all there. A physician who says bacteria aren't real, operates from prejudice, not science, and someone who says the supernatural isn't real operates the same way.
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