The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
TNS Archives

[IMRight]

homeschooled my kids

That's our plan as well. What sort of problems did you run into, and are there any groups you recommend? (I know we have a little time - or at least that "homeschooling" is the only option for a couple years.)

[JHavard]

(BTW, I haven't heard the Holy Spirit referred to as "it" in a very long time. Do you call the Holy Spirit "it" just out of habit, or, do you believe that the Holy Spirit is not a person ((by person, I mean a living being with a personality))?)

No! I believe the Holy Spirit is a separate but same enmity of God, an individual. I hadn't noticed I used the word "it", and I apologize for that, my thoughts must have been too far ahead of me and my one typing finger.Lol

What about sin which is entered into with full knowledge (one knows it is wrong), and which one wishes he could conquer, but which he feels powerless to say "no" to, such as a long-term sin which has become a habit? Would it be a "willful sin" or an un-willful sin?

How's about a "willful sin covered by the blood of Christ"?
If a person can acknowledge he considers it a sin, and one that he can't seem to overcome, it certainly isn't willful, if he hates it, and knows he will never be content until it's conquered.

That’s what Christ did for us when he took our sins to the cross, he didn't just die for the sin's we could overcome, but for those we couldn't.

If we could simply and emediately overcome everyone of our sin's, then what need was there for Christ?

Some times these sin's that seem so giant to us at one time in our life, simply pass away in time, almost as though God intervened and took them away from us.

I smoked a pipe for 35 years, and I had quit probably 100 times, but I could never stay quit for long, then one day I said, this isn't fair to my wife, not only the smoke she was exposed to, but if I were to die from it, and leave her alone with the thought that,.. if only he hadn't been so selfish, he would still be here. I prayed for help, and I quit that day, and I had no withdrawal problems or temptations to start again, and I didn't even throw out all my pipes or tobacco until years later.

It was so easy, I knew God had given me a miracle and I thank him to this day. I sometimes think though, I probably won't be credited with overcoming this, because I didn't have anything to do with it. (^g^)

[SoothingDave]

We are a new creation, alive to Christ and dead to sin, and there is nothing I can do to reverse that process. Once I am saved, I am adopted into the family of Christ, joint heirs with Him, and nothing, nothing can change that.

I was with you 100 per cent until you got to here. Remember the Prodigal Son? He squandered his inheiritance, he renounced his birthright. And he was left to suffer the consequences.

When he repented and returned contrite to the Father he was restored to his proper place with much rejoicing. But when he was lost, he was lost.

SD

[JohnnyM]

but feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving to the poor are all works. So by not doing these works I somehow lose salvation. This seems works based to me. You say it is faith that ensures my salvation, but "my" works or lack there of that can lose it. That seems works based to me but on the other end of the spectrum. Rather than works earning my salvation, it is work that lose it. Its still works no matter how you flip the coin.

JM

[IMRight]

Remember that Paul felt his mission was to bring about "the obedience of Faith" (1st and last times that faith is mentioned in Romans). If your definition of "Faith" & "Works" pits the two against one another, you may be in error.

Just a story I heard, but I've heard it from a couple people. The Anglicans & Catholics batted this argument around for fifteen years in a dialog similar to the one ended by the Baptists that sprouted this thread. One side said "Faith is sufficient" (true) the other side said "Faith without works is dead" (also true). After 15yrs they agreed on a common statement "Faith is sufficient, but if you have Faith, you will do works"... to which I say "DUH! That took 15yrs?"

[JohnnyM]

but the prodigal son never lost his sonship. Never lost his place in the family. Sin can separate us from communion with God and we need to be restored through forgiveness, like the prodigal son did with his father, but he never lost his place as his son, as his child.

JM

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

The verse about "work out your salvation" does not mean EARN your salvation, it's speaking of showing your salvation through your works. That verse is found in Philp. 2:12. Look at Philp. 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, WHICH ARE BY JESUS CHRIST, .... Our works are done by Christ through us. He should get the credit. We only will have Christ in us when we have opened the door to his knock. Then we are saved, then we do his good works.

Becky

[SoothingDave]

I suspect this expectation is not as great in the RC Church. I remember, in the old days (pre Vatican II) we had Masses every hour. What with the need of filling and emptying the Church every 45 minutes, the Mass was one big, uncomprehensible, rush. I hope it is not still that way.

I have no personal knowledge (being a young whippersnapper)of the days before V II, but I can anecdotally accept the stories of Catholics being afraid to read their Bibles, leaving that to the official people. Vatican II, properly understood, was to bring a new life, a fresh breeze into the Church and to challenge people to not leave everything up to the priests. To "take ownership" of their role in the Church. People have been encouraged to do personal reading of Scripture since then and most (all?) Churches have Bible study groups, formal or informal.

The attitude toward liturgy was to be renewd as well, though this remains a mixed bag. There are still many folks and priests who appear to be rushing to get the liturgy over with. And there are very real time constraints because of the number of people who need to be serviced on Sunday. Most churches leave at least 90 minutes between Masses, with a one hour Mass duration the norm. This leaves about 10 minutes for a sermon.

Maybe the future will change for the better, as fewer priests leads to fewer Masses, further apart. Without needing to rush to fit in 4 or 5 Masses in one morning, perhaps a fuller, more proper service will be the result.

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I wanted a horse from the time I knew what they were, and He is the one who bought it for me, he pays the bills, and he NEVER gripes about the amount of time I spend on them. Some women I know have husbands who do gripe:( Need I say more:)

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

LOL, Good shot:)

Becky

[SoothingDave]

but the prodigal son never lost his sonship. Never lost his place in the family. Sin can separate us from communion with God and we need to be restored through forgiveness, like the prodigal son did with his father, but he never lost his place as his son, as his child.

We don't know that. Not at all. Had the son not returned in repentence we simply do not know what the father would have done. And had the father died, would the other brothers have gone looking for the lost one in order to share the inheiritance?

SD

[JohnnyM]

I agree in essence of what you stated. I believe works are a fruit of faith, but works in themselves have no bearing on one's salvation either obtaining it or losing it.

JM

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I have to go ride a horse right now:) But I will get back to you on thisbecasue it is a pet subject for me. Bye for now.

Becky

[SoothingDave]

I wanted a horse from the time I knew what they were, and He is the one who bought it for me, he pays the bills, and he NEVER gripes about the amount of time I spend on them.

Oh, OK. It just sounded funny that you said in the same breath that he gave you children and he gave you a horse.

SD

[JohnnyM]

those verses show that it is God's works not ours. He is the one working through us. So "my" works are meaningless, it is only God's work that is pleasing. Christ working in me and through me that are pleasing to God.

JM

[ksen]

JohnnyM: So based on what you believe, can you lose your salvation?? In other words, can I being saved lose my salvation and end up eternally separated from God?

SoothingDave: Yes, sir. If salvation is based upon faith, and faith requires obedience, then we can surely fall out of faith by our disobedience.

Sorry to intrude on your discussion, but I would like to ask a question to SD.

Here is an excerpt from Hebrews 6:

"[1]Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, [2]of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and ofeternal judgement. [3]And this will we do, if God permit. [4]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5]and have tasted the good work of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6]if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." - He 6:1-6

This passage says that if it were possible to fall away(lose your salvation) then the only way to "be saved" again is to crucify Jesus again. Since that isn't going to happen, how could one possibly be right with God again?

-ksen

[JohnnyM]

nice post ksen.

JM