The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[malakhi]

". . . For also JAMES, THE BROTHER, ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, OF CHRIST OUR GOD, to whom the throne of the church of Jerusalem first was

From your #1988, do you know what language this document you are citing was originally written in? I'm presuming Latin.

[JHavard]

No they are not wrong, but rather a participation in Creation. Nevertheless, Mary did not have other children. Mary was a spotless vessel to hold God Incarnate. Havoc would object, but I would not use something which God had touched for an ordinary use.

I sometimes chuckle when you say that Mary was a spotless vessel that carried God Incarnate, and if you had a glass that God had drank out of, would you use it for a common drinking glass? (My analogy)

I think that the case you make why Joseph would never touch Mary sexually again is not even realistic.

Mary nursed Jesus, changed his dirty diapers, and washed his bottom, smacked his butt when he was bad, yelled at him, wiped his dirty face, got mad when he wouldn't eat his food and probably forgot half the time that he was the Son of God.

She probably wondered sometimes if it wasn't all a dream, because he was so typically human, he was just like all other boys his age, and after he was born and they settled into a routine, she didn't sit all day long and say to her self, this is the Savior, this is the Savior, she started leading a normal life as any woman of that time.

She was a Jew, God had said go forth and multiply, she also knew he would soon have his own life, and then what about her and Joseph?

Jesus was around them for 30 years, do you think that she sat and waited for his beckon call every day? Don't you think she had a life?

A kid is a kid, and you can only be fully aware of his calling so many hours a day. Could Jesus have had a normal childhood if his mother hung on him all day long?

I think most catholics forget the human side of life, and she was just as human as you were, I think when he was 12 years old, he told them in more or less words, get a life Mom and Dad, I have my Fathers work to do.

[malakhi]

Re: your 2016:

C'mon, are those types of comments really necessary?

[malakhi]

Yes, Mary is a Cadillac carrier, and when she had dilivered the Fleetwood, she then dilivered 2 Oldsmobiles, a Buick, a Pontiac, and two Sebrings

ROFLOL!

[malakhi]

If all this means is "submission" Why not simply call her "an obedient and key servant of God of extraordinary faith?"

Hi cook, good question. I think half the disputes here are because people misunderstand what someone else means. The other half is because they DO understand what the other person means, and disagree vehemently. A regular roomful of cats we've got here. ;o) Feel free to jump in anytime.

[Pelayo]

I sometimes chuckle when you say that Mary was a spotless vessel that carried God Incarnate, and if you had a glass that God had drank out of, would you use it for a common drinking glass? (My analogy)

Bad analogy, if you could find the Holy Grail would you use it for Kool-Aid? It's also not quite what SD meant, a more accurate analogy would be "if you had the Ark would you use it as a box for YOUR stuff?"

Mary nursed Jesus, changed his dirty diapers, and washed his bottom, smacked his butt when he was bad, yelled at him, wiped his dirty face, got mad when he wouldn't eat his food and probably forgot half the time that he was the Son of God.

I don't think He was ever bad, I could be wrong. Perhaps you can give us a Biblical reference?

She probably wondered sometimes if it wasn't all a dream, because he was so typically human, he was just like all other boys his age, and after he was born and they settled into a routine, she didn't sit all day long and say to her self, this is the Savior, this is the Savior, she started leading a normal life as any woman of that time.

She gave birth while she was a virgin. I don't think that is the kinda thing you just chalk up to a dream!

A kid is a kid, and you can only be fully aware of his calling so many hours a day. Could Jesus have had a normal childhood if his mother hung on him all day long?

Do you think Jesus had a normal childhood?

I think most catholics forget the human side of life, and she was just as human as you were, I think when he was 12 years old, he told them in more or less words, get a life Mom and Dad, I have my Fathers work to do.

First, I don't think they minded. Second, I really don't think Jesus would say that to His parents. After all, wouldn't that be braking His own rules?

[saradippity]

I am not sure what I was demonstrating but I think I was pointing out that I was not a hypocrite. I agreed with a quote from John Paul II about God taken from an encyclical that I think is edifying. Mr.PAYNO seemed to think it had something to do with the price of eggs,I guess. I thought it had more to do with the fact that the Bible needed more,like Tradition and the Magisterium to bring the fullness of Truth to the world.Since I had twice heard the biblical scholar,Mr. Clinton justify his position on moral matters,on the absence of information in the Bible on subject,I tossed it in to show the perils of personal interpretation of scripture,or scripture only,or a combination.

It is clear to me that most non-Catholics on this thread seek to convert the Catholic and/or convince them of the error of their ways and the Catholics try to explain why we believe what we believe in case some day you might be looking for something more.

While I think that we would do better if we could work together to change the hearts of the world to Jesus Christ,so that we might all be one,as He and the Father are One,I see no chance of that happening with regard to the regulars on this thread. So I will just keep lurking and posting,using you all to amplify or enlarge my knowledge for other projects I am working on.I do appreciate a lot of input you all give.

Meanwhile I rest easy knowing that for 2000 years many holy and brilliant men and women have been protecting and connecting and developing the Bride of Christ and I don't have to look around for a group of people who feel about Jesus as I do and reinvent the wheel,yet again. I sincerely hope that doesn't sound off-putting because that is not my intent.

I am interested in knowing if anyone on this thread beside myself was born between 1929 and 1946, I have a theory about what went askew with the world.

[dignan3]

I know you won't respond (as apparently my posts in regards to Greek do not exist), but you're only half right here. She is the subject of the verb, but as it is in the middle/passive (there is only one way to denote the two voices in the perfect participle), she is being acted upon. When I say, "I was hit" it doesn't say a whole lot about me except what happened to me. It doesn't say that I have a quality of "hitness" which makes people hit me. That is the stretch which you are attempting to make when you say that the participle in the middle/passive shows us something about Mary. She is the object of grace (a far better translation of charitoo than favor, synonomous to the Hebrew word that is translated in KJV "favor" as in "Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord"). It's not that she has some "graceness" which causes her to be the object of grace.

OK, here we go.

Kecharitomene is a perfect middle/passive participle. I agree with your explanation of the middle/passive voice, to a point(which I will explain below). The perfect tense denotes a past completed action. The participle corresponds to "-ed" or -"ing" in English.

The reason why I don't fully agree on the middle/passive is the example you used. My question is what is the nature of grace(charitoo)? Is it not an interior, real transformation of the soul? The only other place that charitoo is used is in Ephesians:

Ephesians 1:5(KJV) "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;"

The words in color is the translation of the Greek, echaritôsen. How are we to be echaritôsen? God, through His grace forgives us our sins through the blood of Christ. It transforms the soul from being in sin to being free from sin because grace and sin are polar opposites.

Now if God has completed in the past His giving of grace to Mary, as the perfect tense denotes, can there be any stain of sin on her soul at the time of the Angelic greeting of Luke 1:28? Is not then the translation "full of grace" a legitimate translation, especially in light of her vocation as Mother of the Word made flesh? Would, and can, God draw flesh and dwell in a woman racked with sin?

Now, I admit that kecharitomene doesn't, by itself, imply that this completion of grace that God bestowed on Mary happened at conception. All we know from kecharitomene is that it was completed sometime before Luke 1:28. It is through the recognition of Mary as the "new Eve", the comparison between the two being made as early as the 2^nd century, and her similarities to the Ark of the Covenant(which is implicit in Scripture), which gives us further insight on the dignity that God bestowed Mary although I know you most likely don't buy into those two comparisons(though you should for it would make things a lot easier :>)),

I completely agree with your last sentence. Apart from God, Mary is just another young Jewish virgin.

Pray for John Paul II

[hopefulpilgrim]

Mary was saved by Christ before she was born. She was preserved from Original Sin in the womb of her mother and she was given special graces to resist temptation to personal sin. Rather than save her from "the hole" in which most of us find ourselves, Jesus saved her from ever falling into that hole.

This is false because it is unscriptural. (Sorry, I could not just ignore this falsehood.) This is the reasoning of man.

[hopefulpilgrim]

Do you choke on the concept of Theotokos, or "God-bearer"?...As I've said a few thousand times, when we really question someone who denies Mary her role, we find someone who denies Jesus' divinity.

The goal in any theological discussion is not only to communicate what one holds to be true from God's revelation concerning Himself, but also to guard against misunderstanding which comes about by the use of language that leads to conclusions not revealed in God's word. The term, "theotokos" does leave room for one to conclude that Mary is the origin of Christ's diety. Even the Council of Chalcedon recognized the need for a qualifying phrase to guard against such a misconception. That Council declared Mary to be the mother of God according to His manhood. The title "mother of our Lord" is sufficient to state her relationship to the Christ. To falsely accuse protestants who prefer the biblical term, "mother of our Lord," of rejecting the diety of Christ would be equivalent to a protestant accusing catholics of declaring Mary to be the originator of God Himself without trying to understand their theology in its historical context. These kinds of false accusations neither promote the search for common understanding nor give us a fuller understanding of God Himself.

[hopefulpilgrim]

You wrote to PayNo: Maybe you can take a stab at my logic. Which one of these statements do you not agree with?
Jesus is God
Mary gave birth to Jesus

Hey Dave, try this one:

God is eternal; He cannot die.
Jesus is God.
Therefore, Jesus did not die.

Man's logic is fallible, isn't it? Only God's is not.

[hopefulpilgrim]

It all follows logically from the concept of grace and what being "full of grace" means.

We covered this over the weekend. It means to be an object of a gracious visitation. It has nothing to do with Mary's personal character; rather, it speaks of the grace (gift) of God! Get up to speed, partner! (like I should talk...)

[hopefulpilgrim]

Thanks, Big Mack, for getting us back to the source of truth, GOD'S word. "The sum of Thy word is truth." (Ps. 119:160)

[hopefulpilgrim]

if her pastor (a woman) was the husband of one wife. Her answer: She's not married.:) She wasn't even a blonde:)

LOL!!!

[hopefulpilgrim]

AMEN, JM !! Wonderful grace of Jesus, greater than all my sin. How shall my tongue describe it? Where shall its praise begin? Taking away my burden, setting my spirit free, for the wonderful grace of Jesus reaches me!

[hopefulpilgrim]

After seven months here there are still people who won't put 2 and 2 together to call Mary theotokos because of what they think it means, instead of what it actually means. Despite repeated clarifications.

Why is it so important to you that we affirm, like you, that Mary is the "mother of God"? Is it the password for some secret sect? Why must she be the subject of every sentence? Why is it not enough for you or the R catholic church for us to say JESUS is GOD? The way some venerate her, it reminds me of that goddess, Isis.

[hopefulpilgrim]

No amount of wrangling will make Mary the one who deserved the favor she received. And if she didn't deserve it then, why does she deserve veneration now?

This is an excellent question! May I answer????????? Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.

[hopefulpilgrim]

You crack me up.

[hopefulpilgrim]

It says that Mary serves as a dispenser of God's grace, earned by Christ on the Cross. As Christ came to the world through Mary, she still serves as a channel throuhg which all of God's graces flow.

False teaching. Unscriptural. God nowhere says this....in ANY language. Deceiver.

[hopefulpilgrim]

Pope John Paul II criticizes "Bible-only" thinking in his latest encyclical letter, "Faith and Reason" (Fides et Ratio). The Pope, a onetime philosophy professor, warns against "fideism," the idea that rational knowledge has little value for faith. He condemns "biblicism" as "one currently widespread" symptom of the problem. John Paul redefines biblicism as the tendency "to make the reading and exegesis of Scripture the sole criterion of truth." The rule of Christian faith, the Pope claims, is unity among three sources of truth: "Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture, and the Magisterium [teaching authority] of the Church" (What in the World, Vol. 25, No. 3, 1999).

This Is this a joke? Someone must be putting words in His mouth.