Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Paul is making a very general statement. You are not allowing that the relationship between Mary and Jesus was very special. There is also the possibility that Paul, who never saw Jesus in flesh, never met Mary, and/or knew nothing of the Virgin Birth.IN any case. He seems remarkably unconcerned with the details of Jesus's life and ministry.
Gee. Only took ya close to 200 threads to really expose what you're all about.
Hey everybody. RobbyS thinks Protestantism is close to being antichrist and the whore of Babylon. I'm sure glad I'm not protestant.
I kinda knew, as much as you throw the word "hate" around that, sooner or later, you'd be exposed a true non-catholic hater.
Ahh logic, such a strange sounding word from your side. Ok here look at it again, and please pay attention it really is obvious... "How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years." vs " "How shall this be, since I have no husband?" Look at where the "?" mark is in each verse. Mary adds a qualifier indicating confusion at the declaration, not disbelief. Zechariah simply states "How shall I know this?" And to prove he understands what the Angel is saying he makes an argument that he is to old and so is his wife. He is justifying his disbelief. Mary isn't justifying any belief or disbelief, she is simply confused at the message. Zechariah=How am I supposed to believe this? It can't happen! Mary=I'm confused, how will this be done?
Oh! One more thing. Zechariah believed before Mary did because Elizabeth had been pregnant for 6 months before Mary was even tested. He, Zechariah, didn't have to speak, all he had to do was look. He believed.
Chronologically yes, but Mary never doubted thus she believes first. But it doesn't matter because as you should know (assuming you pay attention to it) it has nothing to do with my original argument, unless you make the claim that Zechariah believed in Jesus before Mary did.
Unqualified or not, I'm not the one wasting my time trying to prove the other guy wrong by interpreting Scripture against him. You however never even grasped my original point that Mary was the first human to believe in Jesus. You made an argument that has absolutely nothing to do with it. You just wanted to disagree.
I don't know why? It is an easy one. Mary was Immaculately Conceived for the sole purpose of being Christ's mother. Thus the cause of her sinlessness was Christ
And, Zechariah had six months to believe in Jesus before Mary was even approached. Do you think he believed the devil did it?
Are you really saying Zechariah new about Jesus befor Mary was told? Where, in the Bible, did the Angel tell him about Jesus?
I'll take a swing at it, but it's off the cuff (I'm really not a "Mary expert") but I think the point is educational regardless of whether it is directly on topic. Most of it is not uniquely Catholic and my description is somewhat annoyingly simplistic
Let's look all the way back in Salvation history: What would the state of the world be like if Adam and Eve had never fallen? We would merely be creatures (servants and slaves to be more exact). This would not be a bad thing of course - to spend our days walking in the garden with the Lord - but we would not have eternal life (or if we did, we would be more like the angels). Instead, we not only have eternal life in Heaven, we have become adopted sons and daughters of God. Heirs of God & co-heirs with Christ. We shall, in fact, reign with him throughout eternity. This "good news" is infinitely and immeasurably above what we were ever destined to prior to the fall (and why I believe that even the fall was part of God's design). So now we can say "Behold what manner of Love the Father has given unto us... That we should be called children of God... and so we are!" This is not "and so we are" as in "and son-of-a-gun we are", it is that He has declared us His children and He cannot declare a thing without it being so (God cannot lie).
But the mid-term result of their sin was to dis-grace us as a people. That is - Adam & Eve essentially said "no" to God and we became unable to ever say "yes" to Him. Our very nature is in opposition to His design for us and to His law. We have not the grace to respond to His call (until Christ, of course). We are generated after Adam and receive that fallen nature.
So now we come to Mary. Many non-Catholics (and many Catholics) believe that the Catholic position is that it would be impossible for a sinful woman to bear a sinless creature, so Mary had to be sinless. This is not so (and is demonstrably false since it would require Mary's mother to also be sinless etc. etc. etc.) Mary need not be sinless, and in fact, she certainly had committed the same types of sins all of us do. She only needs to be free from the dis-gracing nature of original sin (the stain of Adam) so that it is possible for her to say "yes" to Christ.
This does not mean that she had no personal sin from which she could to be saved. But more importantly, lacking original sin could only elevate her from renegade servant or rebellious creature to one who was not in opposition to God's will (at best, the level Adam & Eve started at). It would not make her bound for Heaven and eternal life with the Father. She must still be saved. Her simple "yes" may have been adequate (I'm not qualified to judge, but it seems that she had "received Christ" or "accepted Christ" in a unique way), but she certainly came to understand the things of Christ over the course of His life.
"It is by Grace you are saved through Faith and that not of yourself lest any man should boast."
This verse is often used to state the primacy of Faith (and the point is valid) but it is so often quoted (and often translated) as if the word "that" were not there. The point of course, is that even our faith is a gift of God's grace and not of our own doing. We retain our fallen nature when we come to Christ and are unable to say "yes" to Him by our own power - it is by His Grace.
I apologize for my somewhat unrefined explanation and I pray that I have not mis-stated the case.
Come Lord Jesus.
I believe it is vital for a christian to know from the start of their walk with God that they are saved.I believe that not knowing has a smothering effect on a persons growth as a christian and limits the Spirit's influence in their life.
I believe that since God created man then it is He that understands best how man ticks.I also believe that we have much in us that is hard-wired by God and that certain stimuli have certain effects that are as certain as the law of gravity,that there are spiritual laws that can't be broken without consequence.
Let me give an illustration...
A man comes to work in the morning,he's whistling,saying hello and good morning to any and everyone,commenting on what a great day it is,even though he's soaked through from helping a bunch of teenagers gather up their scattered baseball cards from all over the sidewalk and he walks into the office ranting about how great it is to be alive! Some folks smile and wonder what he's been smoking,some folks are annoyed that someone else is so happy when their lives are miserable (although even they grudgingly admit that he sure is infectious!)and some folks know he's about to go on holidays to the Bahamas.Which pretty much explains the attitude he has.
I'm sure you can all identify with what I'm saying even if I did stretch it just a tad.
The point I am trying to make is that this person had a wonderfull promise that was on the verge of being realized and it effected his attitude in a major way....and it's a safe bet he wasn't even trying to be nice...it was simply coming out of him as a result of his hope....in fact the only thing that would stifle his joy would be if he WASN'T SURE it was true...or he simply didn't really believe it!
Think about this....was it the man doing the good works or the promise inside him?...."For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."(Hebrews 4:10-11) So much of what I see in christendom seems to say that we should try and act nice,try and be cheerfull,try to have a happy outlook etc etc when the bible actually says ".....for the joy of the LORD is your strength"(Nehemiah 8:10)
I can't see how anyone could argue this.It seems as true as the sky is blue...put a sure promise inside someone and stand back! Once the person comprehends what is going to happen there will be no stopping them...they will be 'up' no matter what the present circumstances might be...and they won't have to try!
God is trying to fill us with a sure hope....
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace;*TO THE END THE PROMISE MIGHT BE SURE to all the seed..."
God is very keen for us to know this...
"Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil"(Hebrews 6:17-19)
The church needs to get this....if they are not understanding this then what are they teaching? I've been a christian for long enough now to have seen people go to church,do all the right things,attend hundreds of conferences,meetings,give to the poor,always at prayer groups and bible studies and even become ministers and then after 20 or so yrs have a complete breakdown of themselves and their ministries...and then wonder why God didn't help them! Like I said in a previous post....people come out of cults and are de-programmed....the world is the worst cult of all and yet there is no de-programming! People come and sit in church with the same old carnal way of seeing and thinking and then set about (and are encouraged to set about) doing the "work of God" according to that old worldly understanding....the church seems intent on manufacturing Martha's.
Jesus was VERY specific about what the work of God was in John 6:29....the acting nice and being peacefull and giving to the poor and needy,praying for them etc etc was to be God's work in and through us NOT OURS! Our "job" was to believe....that's what we are supposed to be doing and the rest will be a result of that.
Jesus didn't say "come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you work to do"...He said He would give us REST...let us labour therefore to ENTER that rest (Hebrews 4)...work out your salvation with fear and trembling...give dilligence therefore to make SURE your election and calling,for IF you do this you will NEVER FALL.(2nd Peter 1)
Humans seem to subconciously gravitate towards that which is behind the veil....hence the gazillions of religions,apparitions,spooky stories,rituals etc etc etc.However the bible tells us exactly how we are to do it according to the truth...."which HOPE we HAVE as an anchor for the soul AND which entereth into that which is within the veil"...the sure hope takes us behind the veil.
It does something else as well...
"Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature..."(2nd Peter 1:4)
exceeding great and precious promises:THAT BY THESE ye might be partakers of the divine nature!
Thus...we enter into that which is behind the veil BY the sure promise of God and we become a partaker of the divine nature BY the promise of God also....if that promise is never sure....then you will not be entering into the veil OR partaking of the divine nature....you may spend your entire christian walk "busting a gut" but the JOY of God will not be your strength....it will be your works and not God's....and ultimately they will fail.
Listen to Jesus words for those who may think and teach differently....
Luke 11:52"Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered."
The key of knowledge is the GRACE of God....and His perfect love will cast out ALL fear.
I believe that this is what 1st John 5:13 is talking about....If you believe on Jesus then you can KNOW ye have eternal life...and by knowing that you can now go on to "believe all things" "enter into that which is within the veil" "come boldly to the throne of grace" "be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God."
Told you it would be a rant...hope it blesses you.
grace and peace to you all
God bless
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