The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles) -- Thread 162

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

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The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles) -- Thread 161

[Iowegian]

Actually it isn't very convenient, we have all kinds of problem trying to understand it.

I agree with you. If I was going to invent a doctrine myself, I would never try one like this, it's much too hard for our finite minds to comprehend. But it is so like God.

[OLD REGGIE]

What about lynching blacks by the thousands? That is what ahppened in the "Christian" South between 1890 and 1930.
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This is a stain on the history of the United States, not a Church. It is absoloutely irrelevant to the subject. Why don't you also list the Native Americans killed with the support of the "One Holy and (some) Apostolic Protestant Church(es)? Are you attempting to relate this to the countless people killed during the Crusades, territorial conquests, and various Inquisitions? In other words, don't be silly.

[dadwags]

162:264
Pilgrim, would the lrtters of Ignatius of Antioch, written while on the way to rome to suffer Martyrdom in the early second century, count?
Would an account of the (still existing) 8th/9th century miracle at Lanciano convince you ? If so, maybe some of the real scholars like dignan, al_c, pegleg, soothing dave or a lurking RC scholar can elaborate on these matters in depth .

[Pelayo]

Havoc, how can you cast doubt on the pontifications of Hollywood !?! Remember the movie "Quo Vadis"?

That was my favorite movie when I was little:).

I was just thinking about my favorite Religiose Movies, and I was wondering what you all's favorite religiose movies, and scenes?

Mine would be, Of course, Franco Zeffirelli's Jesus of Nazareth My favorite scene was where Herod(the elder) makes the comment, referring to the Jews, "They must struggle against Rome because it is written! Altogether literacy has had a disastrous effect on this land". I also liked A.D.

[JHavard]

Pilgrim, would the lrtters of Ignatius of Antioch, written while on the way to rome to suffer Martyrdom in the early second century, count?

dadwags, have you recently or ever gone to the Catholic Encyclopedia, click on the "I", and then scroll down to Ignatius of Antioch, and then read all about this man?

I don't mean when you were in Catechism or Catholic school, I mean recently, since you have been on these threads, and have seen how others have read of these same so called early fathers, and came away with a completely different picture of them?

I dare say if I read the same thing about the apostles that I read about these men, I would have the same doubts about their authority and perspective also.

What if John wrote in one of his books that the reason that Satan approached Eve, was he knew that she was the smarter of the two, and if he could trick her, she then would be able to trick old not too bright Adam.

Or what if Paul had written that when we die, our bodies remain in a state that they can be resurrected when that time comes, as though what ever is put in the grave, is what will be resurrected, so if we are all in one piece, we may be easier recognized. (Paraphrase mine).

Or if Peter made the claim that there is no need for baptism, and there was no original sin.

Or that Luke had written that grace was not necessary for salvation, and that free will and the law could save you.

These ideas would stand out like a sour thumb against the rest of the scripture, and we would know that it was either an interpolation of scripture, or they were not of the same group of men who Christ taught.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Know that you are a sinner, that you cannot save yourself so you need a savior, and that Jesus' died for your sin, and that he rose from the dead as proof that God accpeted the scarafice, and believe that hes's blood is the only thing that will save you.

[RobbyS]

If you are going to bring up the past, we can match you atrocity for atrocity. Whereever Protestants have been in power, they too have used government to oppress others. You Protestants remember St. Bart's Day; Catholics remind us that Huguenots used to wear chains around their necks of the ears of priests. Proddies talks about" Bloody Mary," but celebrate her sister,"Good Queen Bess" whose secret service executed hundreds of Catholics and Puritans. The English still celebrate Guy Fawkes Days, in celebration of a desperate attempt by Catholic to rid themselves of a despotic Protestant government. What the English did in Ireland under Elizabrth, under Cromwell and under William of Orange is well known at least to Catholics. Nor was Protestant intolerance limited to papists. Remember the Quakers that the New England Puritans hung? We both can thank men James Madison and others for finally devising a form of government in which Christians and Jews can generally live in piece. But let us not forget the anti-Catholic riots in Charleston and Louisville, NOR the fact that the Southern Baptist Convention exists today because in 1845 THEY chose slavery over freedom.

[pegleg]

Absoloutely brilliant! Please enlighten me.

I was hoping you would enlighten me. There is absolutely no credible evidence of any Protestant denomination existing prior to the reformation. Yet you appear to agree with FC that Baptists, and perhaps some other denominations, have been around since the time of the Apostles. No serious historian or theologian would even argue this. So I am curious what Gnostic knowledge you and perhaps others posses that could prove this outrageous claim.

Like I said, some of you people insist on living in a fantasy world.

[RobbyS]

Now that you bring up the subejct of indians, it is no accident that the population of Mexico is today 90% Indian or mestizo, and the United States about 3%. If The United States has fostered religious toleration, it has done little to promote racial tolerance.

[JHavard]

If you are going to bring up the past, we can match you atrocity for atrocity. Whereever Protestants have been in power, they too have used government to oppress others. You Protestants remember St. Bart's Day; Catholics remind us that Huguenots used to wear chains around their necks of the ears of priests. Proddies talks about" Bloody Mary," but celebrate her sister,"Good Queen Bess" whose secret service executed hundreds of Catholics and Puritans. The English still celebrate Guy Fawkes Days, in celebration of a desperate attempt by Catholic to rid themselves of a despotic Protestant government. What the English did in Ireland under Elizabrth, under Cromwell and under William of Orange is well known at least to Catholics. Nor was Protestant intolerance limited to papists. Remember the Quakers that the New England Puritans hung? We both can thank men James Madison and others for finally devising a form of government in which Christians and Jews can generally live in piece. But let us not forget the anti-Catholic riots in Charleston and Louisville, NOR the fact that the Southern Baptist Convention exists today because in 1845 THEY chose slavery over freedom.

Wow, Iowegian what didst thou sayest, to bring this wrath down onest thy head?

I just back tracked through the post to find what you said, and apparently it was the fascist word.

I think that RobbieS had all this material stored in a barf bag someplace, just waiting for an opportunity to dump it, and you were the one.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I would not attempt an answer to anyone of another religous group except to recommend they live byu the tenets of their religion. (I don't believe a person must be a Christian to be saved.

My I respectfully ask what you base this belief on?

Becky

[RobbyS]

The message is, ole chap, is that the hands of your co-religionists are not clean. But Protestants have no patience with history because that means turning over rocks in one's own back yard and discovering they are the tombstones of those your forefathers hated.

[OLD REGGIE]

Now that you bring up the subejct of indians, it is no accident that the population of Mexico is today 90% Indian or mestizo, and the United States about 3%. If The United States has fostered religious toleration, it has done little to promote racial tolerance.
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Now tell me what Church was responsible for this.

[RobbyS]

You can start with the congregational churches of New England, who beginning in the 1630s decimated the Indian population. John Eliot sought to bring Christ to the Indians, but that effort ended after King Phillip's War, and not until the post-Civil war period did Protestants make any effort to send missions to the Indians, and that by Easterners who were safely away from the scene of the Indian Wars. The motto that there is no good indian except a dead one was the same one that the churches preached as well.

[dadwags]

162:305
Come on, JH, you're not really claiming that a man on the way to be executed for the Faith would write that baptism is not really necessary for salvation, would you ?
The one about why Satan picked on Eve rather than Adam reads like something Becky or RNmomof7 would write last week .(0_0)

[OLD REGGIE]

My I respectfully ask what you base this belief on?

Becky
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You must bear in mind I haven't claimed to be a Protestant. Though I have been labelled by some on this forum I don't believe I fit the mold. An ex-Catholic isn't necessarily a Protestant. No?

I believe this because my gut tells me so. I believe good people; good Jews, Catholics, Moslems, Protestants, just plain good people, will not be denied.

Having said this, I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

[OLD REGGIE]

I was hoping you would enlighten me. There is absolutely no credible evidence of any Protestant denomination existing prior to the reformation. Yet you appear to agree with FC that Baptists, and perhaps some other denominations, have been around since the time of the Apostles. No serious historian or theologian would even argue this. So I am curious what Gnostic knowledge you and perhaps others posses that could prove this outrageous claim.

Like I said, some of you people insist on living in a fantasy world.
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I will say this one more time. If you can't understand, or accept what I am saying, just forget about it.

ALL CHRISTIANS TRACE THEIR BEGINNING TO THE FORMATION OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH.

[OLD REGGIE]

You can start with the congregational churches of New England, who beginning in the 1630s decimated the Indian population.
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Documentation please. You are certain it wasn't white man's diseases which decimated the Indians?

[RobbyS]

Look up the Pequot Wars in any history. Read William Bradford. The Pilgrims were not Quaker-like. The wars between the indians and the New Englanders go right up to the French and Indian Wars.

[JHavard]

Come on, JH, you're not really claiming that a man on the way to be executed for the Faith would write that baptism is not really necessary for salvation, would you ?

No, that was Jerome, Ignatius of Antioch from what I have read wasn't such a bad fellow, he never considered himself anything other then a disciple of Christ, and seemed in most writings to be afraid he would say something that would be against what the apostles had written or said.

If we still had his original writings, I think they would be in harmony with the known scripture, but it appears that someone back then tried to use his name to authenticate forgeries that supported there agenda, and it became so screwed up with 8 of the 15 epistles credited to him, being obvious fakes, and the 7 remaining having so many interpolations in them, that many historians doubt that any of them were authentic, because there are no authentic remains of his writings to even give us a clue as to what he actually wrote.

If it weren’t for all the deceit that was centered around him because someone was hoping to use him to bridge that 300 year gap between Peter and the official Catholic Church in the 3rd century, your Church may have been able to glean some truth out of it, but they really blew it for you.

But then again, if his writings had what they tried to forge into it, then they wouldn't have had to forge it would they?