Pub smokers fume as Irish ban begins

The Guardian ^ | March 30, 2004 | John Waters

[ijcr]

Ireland smoke-free will never be at peace, to rather disrespectfully paraphrase the famous rhetorical avowal of its dead, non-smoking teetotaller patriot Padraic Pearse. Or so it seems right now, anyway, a matter of hours into what some are describing as a seismic cultural shift.

In recent weeks one felt that many of Ireland's smoking classes were in a state of outright denial at the impending introduction of Europe's first ban on smoking in the workplace. Now, facing into an era of smoke spies and freephone snitch lines, such hype seems to be rather less fanciful than at first appeared.

For here is a law that, like the civil war of 82 years ago, has set brother against brother. And it is in Ireland's pubs, the traditional repository of the hundred thousand welcomes, that the smoking ban finds its most contentious arena.

The lunchtime trade yesterday in the north-west tourist town of Carrick-on-Shannon, Co Leitrim, manifested the same complex range of divisions as exist everywhere else. At about 2pm, in the Poitin Stil, on Carrick's main street, a woman got up from her stool at the counter and announced that, in deference to the new regime, she now had to go outside for a fag.

A nearby supporter of the smoking ban, who later boasted that for 20 years he had specialised in drawing official attention to contraventions of smoking bans on trains and buses, urged her to embrace the new health-giving atmosphere and discount all thought of narrow personal inconvenience.

"Why must we be the guinea pigs of Europe?" the smoker demanded. "Why must we be first in line to demonstrate our subservience? This is all that cursed EU. If Hitler could have foreseen that it was this easy to bring the people of Europe to their knees, he might never have bothered going all around the houses!"

According to the manager of The Oarsman on Bridge Street, many tourists from places like Germany and the Netherlands have already pledged not to return to Ireland under a smoking ban.

The greatest indigenous incomprehension is likely to arise from the older clientele of the more traditional rural pub, where the same stools have been occupied by the same posteriors since Adam came of age. The idea that outside forces have intruded on what for many drinkers is a fundamental element of their recreational existence is one even the most ardent pro-ban bartenders do not look forward to trying to get across.

As a lifelong non-smoker, I find myself in an odd position. It arises, I believe, from more than the widespread belief that the smoking ban is the thin end of an insidious wedge which will enable the fun police to encroach on more and more aspects of our lives.

The ban, far from being a positive social instrument, will make social life that little bit weaker. Do I, as a non-smoker, have a right to dictate to my smoking fellow-citizens that they can only consort with me if they are prepared to see things my way?

What is most worrying about the debate is that it has ended, uniquely among bar-room debates, with a trophy being awarded. The non-smokers have won. I am not as happy about that as a year ago I thought I would be.

[tnlibertarian]

Every example you use, the lead salts, lead in paint, asbestos in houses, were used when the dangers of the products were not known. The obvious difference here, that you somehow are unable to grasp, is that the health risks of smoking are known. People make a conscious decision that the benefits they receive from a cigarette are worth the possible health risks. The risks of second-hand smoke, although not verifiably proven, are known to the other patrons. They also have made a conscious choice that their enjoyment of the bar is worth the 'risk' of SHS. Some people decide that going to a bar and ending up smelling like an ashtray isn't worth the fun and pleasure they would have if they went. They, too, have weighed the options and decided what they would like to do. They may wish, "I would like to go to a bar and not stink when I leave." At that point they can find one to patronize or just do without. What is fascist is for them to demand that the government tell the bar owner to create an atmosphere that they (the fascists (you)) approve of.

Everyone involved, the bartender, the waitresses, the owner, the patrons, the would-be patrons, know the risks, the upsides, and the downsides. They then decide whether to work there, drink there, or stay home. Somehow, you think that is bad. You said that you are a conservative, not a libertarian. In the immortal words of Indigo Montoya with regards to the word 'conservative', "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." The definition of fascism is private ownership of business with government control. You may be conservative in other areas of politics, but as for this issue, your beliefs are fascist.

[Shryke]

I can tell you RWP is not a DU troll. I will agree that his stance on this particular subject is certainly outside the normal range of positions for a conservative - but, reading one of his posts in this thread, I can guess why. I'd also be vey surprised if he has been banned before. His account is rather old.

[Protagoras]

Old accounts prove nothing anymore. It seems that some people signed up for many accounts long ago and use them from time to time. It has been common lately.

In any case, whether he is or isn't doesn't matter. It's an old ploy, pretend you are a conservative and then take goofy positions designed to make conservatives look inconsistent and otherwise bad.

The main thing is, he advocates fascist policies. My people died keeping this country from being taken over by them from outside, we should never allow them to finally win the war from the inside. I'll be damned if I let my dead relatives down by giving him a pass.

HE IS AN ENEMY OF AMERICA, no matter where he comes from. I can tell you one thing for sure, no towel head islamofascist will ever take over this country, but people like him are already doing so. That makes him more dangerous than a band of 9th century camel humpers.

Carry on.

[Right Wing Professor]

What is fascist is for them to demand that the government tell the bar owner to create an atmosphere that they (the fascists (you)) approve of.

I am astonished that you seem to think that insulting me is going to get me to engage you in a civil discussion. It isn't.

[Modernman]

HE IS AN ENEMY OF AMERICA, no matter where he comes from. I can tell you one thing for sure, no towel head islamofascist will ever take over this country, but people like him are already doing so. That makes him more dangerous than a band of 9th century camel humpers.

Up until now, you've been amusing. With this comment, you've gone totally off the rails. Geez, man, take a step back and take a look at what you're posting. Being in favor of smoking bans makes a person more dangerous than Islamic terrorists?

Try and have some persepective, why dontcha?

[Protagoras]

I have a perfect perspective. It is you who has no clue.

You think that your cowardly use of government force to usurp the rights of others for your personal convienience is no threat to our basic freedoms, but you are not only wrong, you are morally repugnant.

And you and the other fascists who have infiltrated out society and convinced the mindless masses to see things your way are MUCH, MUCH more likely to destroy our way of life than any Islamic terrorist who might kill some statistically insignificant number of our people on their way to hump the 70 virgin camels.

You are the enemy. This country and it's society will never fall from a foreign enemy, it WILL certainly fall from within, and it's because of immoral people like you.

BTW, you were never amusing, mildly or on any other level.

[Right Wing Professor]

I've been here long enough to know you ping a FReeper when you discuss him. I'm not going to continue trading insults with a poster whose posts are so lacking in perspective that he would compare the 'right' to disperse carcinogens in a public place to the second amendment. Get help.

And I have never been banned, suspended, or even warned.

[Protagoras]

I pinged you directly on many occasions. You refused to answer. You lost any privilege to be pinged when you did that.

AND no one is talking about public places, only you and a few other fascists are trying to redefine private property as "public" places. Just like your liberal friends do.

Get help.

[Right Wing Professor]

Try and have some persepective, why dontcha?

You don't understand. Crimping in any way the God-given right to exhale carcinogens in other people's faces is equivalent to setting up death camps or flying airplanes into buildings to kill thousands of people. You don't see the clear connection?

I became a citizen because I love this country. I'm afraid that love has nothing to do with the burning of dead leaves in restaurants. As a matter of fact, both my grandfathers served on the same side as Protagoras's relatives, even though their country was not at war. And they got in at the beginning, not in 1917. Both survived being torpedoed by the Germans.

I'm not going to concede that he has any more right to speak on this issue than I have; and frankly, if he conducts himself in this way off FR, I'm afraid he's probably driving people over to the other side.

[Modernman]

And you and the other fascists who have infiltrated out society and convinced the mindless masses to see things your way are MUCH, MUCH more likely to destroy our way of life than any Islamic terrorist who might kill some statistically insignificant number of our people on their way to hump the 70 virgin camels.

You owe me a new keyboard. This is one of the funniest things I have read on FR in a long time. Seriously, step away from the keyboard and take a deep breath. Maybe go outside for some fresh air. You've been cooped up too long in your fall-out bunker if you think statements like this are rational.

You are the enemy. This country and it's society will never fall from a foreign enemy, it WILL certainly fall from within, and it's because of immoral people like you.

I'm thrilled that you think I'm really so powerful as to be able to destroy the American Way of Life. Guess I haven't been giving myself the credit I'm due.

BTW, you were never amusing, mildly or on any other level/

That's okay, you provide enough comic relief to make up for me.

[Right Wing Professor]

I pinged you directly on many occasions. You refused to answer. You lost any privilege to be pinged when you did that.

You butted (har har) into this thread with a direct insult, and have continued in this vein. I reserve the right to ignore foul-mouthed punks, particlarly those who seem to be three suits short of a full deck.

You're now on full ignore.

[Modernman]

You don't understand. Crimping in any way the God-given right to exhale carcinogens in other people's faces is equivalent to setting up death camps or flying airplanes into buildings to kill thousands of people. You don't see the clear connection?

I love libertarians. To them, everything is of earth-shattering importance. Banning smoking in bars is the moral, ethical and political equivalent of gassing the Jews.

Maybe I shouldn't be so amused at these analogies, though. I missed being in the WTC by about 10 minutes on 9/11. So, maybe when some blowhard on FR compares smoking bans to what happened on that day and calls the people who died "statistically insignificant," I should get angry. But what's the point?

[Protagoras]

You don't understand.

Actually, you don't understand. Being that you have no tradition of real freedom, being a European who fled from his roots as an authoritarian. You think freedom is the power to force others to your will with a majority vote. You should be deported.

Crimping in any way the God-given right to exhale carcinogens in other people's faces is equivalent to setting up death camps or flying airplanes into buildings to kill thousands of people.

It's about property rights, not junk science, and you know it. But are too intellectually dishonest to admit it. I won't even dignify your use of the junk science by addressing it and allowing you to change the real subject, property rights. And your bizarre idea that you have the legitimate power to walk into a business and demand that it be run for your pleasure. No such right exists. No such LEGITIMATE power exists.

As to the death camps? No one has said anything about that. A cheap liberal trick on your part. Fascism is about private ownership, but government control, of property.

And camel humpers flying airliners into buildings will never bring this society to it's knees. But fascism from within will, and already has done vast damage to society.

You don't see the clear connection?

You actually know the connection, I have explained it on a fifth grade level over and over on this thread. A self proclaimed "professor" such as yourself can understand it, but is too dishonest to admit it.

[Protagoras]

You butted (har har) into this thread with a direct insult, and have continued in this vein. I reserve the right to ignore foul-mouthed punks, particlarly those who seem to be three suits short of a full deck.

Foul mouth? Nice try. The truth hurts. You are a troll.

You're now on full ignore.

As opposed to partial ignore? Like the part where you ignored all the points I made but stopped when you were exposed as a troll?

Head for the hills, thats where you have always been, ignoring all the points and making DU type remarks from behind the rocks.

[Protagoras]

More liberal nonsense. I'll cry my eyes out over your sob story.

Some people can take my freedoms, people like you. Others can't, people like them.

Banning smoking in private property is perfectly acceptable to freedom loving people, despite your nonsensical assertion to the contrary. It's a matter of who does the banning, the owners, or some coward customer.

The gassing of the jews comment is just one more nonsense comment to change the subject. I never called you a NAZI, I described you accurately as a fascist. If you don't understand basic definitions of terms, perhaps you should take a time out of posting and get an education.

BTW, I couldn't care less if you are angry. Try walking into my business and telling me my guests have to change what they are doing to accommodate you and you will see how angry you feel after being told to leave. Your rear on the street in thirty seconds would probably make you angry.

Private property is not a public property.

[freeeee]

And you and the other fascists who have infiltrated out society and convinced the mindless masses to see things your way are MUCH, MUCH more likely to destroy our way of life than any Islamic terrorist who might kill some statistically insignificant number of our people on their way to hump the 70 virgin camels....This country and it's society will never fall from a foreign enemy, it WILL certainly fall from within

I agree.

We hear a lot of hot air lately about defending freedom. The ironic thing is the people who are the most gung-ho about it are the same ones trashing the Constitution and making government larger and more intrusive than any time in our history.

While Saddam was a real SOB to his own people, he didn't pass a single law affecting me. None. Here he doesn't conduct warrantless searches, set up roadblocks, ban smoking, enact gun control, and on and on.

Even the lowly local city commission is far more of a threat to my freedom than every other nation on Earth combined.

[Modernman]

You should be deported.

And you call RWP a fascist. LOL.

You, my friend, are naive. You have no idea what real fascism or communism is like. I come from a family that experienced both, in Mussolini's Italy and Tito's Yugoslavia. That's why I find guys like you amusing, rather than offensive. You're like a child throwing around a swear word that you know is bad, but you don't grasp the true meaning.

You have no clue what "fascism" and "communism" really mean, what those systems entail. Hint: fascists and communists couldn't care less about smoking bans. Only a true democracy/republic like the US has the luxury of debating whether people should smoke in bars.

[Modernman]

More liberal nonsense. I'll cry my eyes out over your sob story.

Trust me, I don't expect you to act like a decent human being.

The gassing of the jews comment is just one more nonsense comment to change the subject. I never called you a NAZI, I described you accurately as a fascist. If you don't understand basic definitions of terms, perhaps you should take a time out of posting and get an education.

No, you threw out your view of what fascists are (basically, anyone who disagrees with you). In terms of education, I don't think you want to start comparing educations here. I'm pretty sure you'll lose.

BTW, I couldn't care less if you are angry. Try walking into my business and telling me my guests have to change what they are doing to accommodate you and you will see how angry you feel after being told to leave. Your rear on the street in thirty seconds would probably make you angry.

There, there. No need to throw a hissy fit. Trust me, I doubt you're selling anything I would have an interest in buying. Anyway, like I said before, if I had a court order, you WOULD accomodate me, whether you like it or not.

[Protagoras]

You have no clue what "fascism" and "communism" really mean, what those systems entail. Hint: fascists and communists couldn't care less about smoking bans.

Incorrect on both counts. Add that to the ever growing list of things you are wrong about. Hard to imagine anyone on this site being so wrong on so many things.

BTW, I ain't your friend.

[freeeee]

fascists and communists couldn't care less about smoking bans

The Nazi's were very interested in controlling the lives of Germans. They were told not to smoke and "that eating is not a personal matter" (sorry I can't find the source for that one), for the good of the fatherland of course.

While death camps certainly were the worst features of the Nazis, there is much more to fascism than that. They strongly held that individualism was a threat to their way of life, they held that Germans were cogs in the big machine. Fascism wouldn't be fascism without collectivism. And collectivism means that nothing is a personal matter.