The FReeper Foxhole Remembers The Col. Simons and the Son Tay Raid (11/20-21/1970) - Sep. 3rd, 2003

http://www.psywarrior.com/sontay.html ^

[E.G.C.]

Good morning Snippy and everyone at the Foxhole.

Folks, be sure to update your anti-virus software and get the very latest critical updates for your computer.

[manna]

Present!

[colorado tanker]

Suddenly, Major Frederick M. "Marty" Donohue's HH-53 helicopter, call sign "Apple-3", developed trouble. Without warning, a yellow trouble light appeared signaling transmission problems. Donohue calmly informed his co-pilot, Captain Tom Waldron, to "ignore the SOB".

Didn't something similar happen during the raid on Teheren to free the hostages, but the decision was made to abort?

[GailA]

[HiJinx]

Something along those lines...equipment malfunctions kept the raid team from using all the birds that were available, I believe.

Race, do you remember? I know SAM and Snippy did a thread on this a little while ago...

[HiJinx]

Okay, I found it. It was in the Operation Eagle Foxhole thread of 4/24/03. Good memory!

Less than two hours into the flight, a warning light came on in the cockpit of Bluebird Six. The indicator, called the Blade Inspection Method, or BIM, warned of a possible leak of the pressurized nitrogen that filled the Sea Stallion's hollow rotors. In the H-53 models the Marines were used to flying, the BIM indicator usually meant a crack in one of the massive blades, which had caused rotor failures and several fatal crashes in the past. As a result, Marine H-53 pilots were trained to land quickly after a BIM warning.

The Navy's RH-53s, however, had newer BIM systems that usually did not foretell a blade failure. To that date, no RH-53 had experienced a blade break and the manufacturer had determined that the helicopter could fly safely for up to 79 hours at reduced speed after a BIM alert.

Down to Seven

However, the pilots of Bluebird Six did not know that. Thinking the craft unsafe to fly, the crew abandoned it in the desert and jumped aboard a helicopter that had landed to help.

The mission was down to seven helicopters.

[HiJinx]

Oops, Operation Eagle Claw.

[aomagrat]

Wednesday's weird warship, the Italian Navy Duilio class battleships

Displacement. 12071 t.
Lenght. 358.2'
Beam. 64.8'
Draft 27.4'
Speed 15 kts
Complement. 420
Armament. 4 17.7" muzzle loaders, 5 4.7", 16 57mm, 4 14" torpedo tubes

Laid down in 1878 and commissioned in 1882, the Duilio and Dandolo were armed with two pairs of giant 17.7 inch guns. The only other battleships to carry bigger guns were the Japanese Musahi and Yamato in WWII.

They caused quite a stir when they joined the Italian Navy. Nothing at sea in 1882 could resist the sledgehammer blows from the 17.7" muzzle loading (that's right, muzzle loading) rifled guns. However their rate of fire was only one round in 15 minutes. They were the first ships in the world with steel armor, 12.5" maximum thickness. They were subdivided into 83 watertight compartments. The two twin turrets were disposed en echelon, to port and starboard admidship to allow a degree of end on fire as well as to allow all four guns to be trained on either beam.

The Duilio was decomissioned in 1909 and turned into a floating oil tank. The Dandolo was modernized in 1900, with 10" breech loaders replacing the 17.7" muzzle loading monsters. She was decomissioned in 1920 and scrapped in 1923.

[larryjohnson]

The Son Tay leaders cam to Tan Son Nhut AB to brief the MACV and 7thAF commanders. The team had their own jump qualified AF Weather officer. I briefed him on my classified weather satellite site. He would have one also at Udorn.
He took with him our two best forecasters,NCOs of course. They each had more than one tour and th one spoke and taught Vietnamese. Satellite pics were included in the after mission reports.

[colorado tanker]

Thanks for finding the story. I just remembered a feeling that if the pilot had said to hell with the warning light the mission might have had a chance.

[RaceBannon]

From my website:

http://rescueattempt.tripod.com/hostagerescueattempt

[colorado tanker]

Thanks, Race. I have to say I've been influenced by the side claiming a failure of pilot nerve was the cause of the problem, but I can see from your website other causes really have to be considered including poor staff work (failure to factor in and train for sandstorms), disunified command, failure to rehearse, failure to stick to the original standard of 10 helicopters and Col. Beckwith's inflexibility. A sad chapter in our military history.

What a difference 20 years makes. Our pilots flew in much worse conditions in the Iraq war and due to superior technology and training not only successfully navigated but were fighting and scoring hits.

[RaceBannon]

Hindsight is 20/20.

The aircraft that turned back, that pilot was to blame, and many have said so.

The one with the primary hydraulic failure, the pilot wanted to continue, but he was overruled.

The pilot with the BIMS indicator going off, well, only he had a reason to set down, even if they never EVER found a crack in the RH-53 blades, he might have been the first.

So, that means only one aircraft had a valid reason to not go on.

And I am glad I wasnt in that ship to turn back, for I do not know what I would have chosen to do if I was puking all over my flight suit, not knowing when that sandstorm was going to end and knowing that my turning back would probably end the mission in failure when we never got there. It is easy to condemn someone whose shoes you never walked in.

[snippy_about_it]

Woo-hoo! Mission accomplished. What an outstanding day!!!!

Now we can relax and head for home tomorrow evening. Thanks Jinxy for holding down the fort while were away and Race, thanks for your help on the information on Operation Eagle.

You guys are great!!

See ya all Friday!

[HiJinx]

Looking forward to it...can't wait!!!

I just can't imagine what kind of special project you've put together that required you to be away...you've really piqued our interest!!

[PhilDragoo]

The Raid
The Son Tay Prison Rescue Mission
by Benjamin F. Schemmer

Aircraft and weapons used in the Son Tay Raid.

The AQM-34L (Model 147SC) was the definitive low-altitude photo-reconnaissance variant, and by far the most numerous with several hundred built under USAF "Compass Bin" and "Buffalo Hunter" programs.

Friends Hank and Erika Holzer met Ross Perot at a POW/MIA convention during work on their Aid and Comfort: Jane Fonda in North Vietnam and Fake Warriors: Identifying, Exposing, and Punishing Those Who Falsify Their Military Service.

I have Jim and Sybil Stockdale, In Love And War, U.S. Naval Institute Press, 1990.

On Free Republic today was posted an article on the chameleon John Kerry's haste to dismiss claims of POWs alive in Vietnam so his cousin could reap real estate profits there.

Kerry [Hanoi Jane in pants] is definitely one who needs to be trod under foot.

[Soaring Feather]

Thanks much Phil.

[E.G.C.]

Thanks Phil for the info.

[colorado tanker]

It is easy to condemn someone whose shoes you never walked in.

Very true. IMHO it's very important to let commanders on the scene command and not micromanage from some situation room.

The plug does have to be pulled on some missions, but to me, the military has always had a simple, pass-fail grading system, pass being for mission accomplishment (except for Vietnam when McNamara decided what "pass" meant, like "sending signals" or body count or whatever the objective de jour was). The failure of this mission was so galling, to me symbolic of the post-Vietnam and Carter years. Little did I know at the time we were shortly to begin rebuilding under Reagan.

[ExSoldier]

Is there a list of the Son Tay Raiders somewhere? As I recall, when I was but a young snip of a KAY-det at Fort Knox, KY in ROTC, one of my trainers...a guy named "JOHN RODRIGUEZ" who at the time I met him in 1978, was a Warrant Officer, was said to have been one of the fabled "Raiders," but I can't remember if he was a WO or an SFC at the time of the raid. I do know the man was Special Forces and he had been wounded in the leg. ROTC was "easy duty" for services rendered until he could retire and this good man dang well deserved it!