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The FReeper Foxhole Presents the Saturday Symposium and Operation Felix - June 18th, 2005
http://www.adolfhitler.ws/lib/proc/direct18.html ^

Posted on 06/18/2005 8:14:30 AM PDT by snippy_about_it



Lord,

Keep our Troops forever in Your care

Give them victory over the enemy...

Grant them a safe and swift return...

Bless those who mourn the lost.
.

FReepers from the Foxhole join in prayer
for all those serving their country at this time.



...................................................................................... ...........................................

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Should (or could) Hitler have taken Gibraltar and how might it have changed the war?




Following a number of detailed reconnaissance missions by officers wearing civilian clothing and studying the Rock from Spanish soil as well as seaward perspectives, the Wehrmacht in the summer and autumn of 1940 drew up detailed plans for Operation Felix, the assault on Gibraltar. Only failure at the highest levels of diplomacy prevented the operation from occurring at the beginning of 1941.


Operation Felix
Directive No.18

 
The Führer and Supreme Commander
of the Armed Forces 
WFSt/Abt. L(I) No. 33 356/40 g. K. Chefs
Top Secret
Führer Headquarters
12 November 1940
10 copies
 By officer only

DIRECTIVE No. 18
 

The preparatory  measures of the High Commands which are being prepared for the conduct of the war in the near future are to be in accordance with the following guiding principles:

1. Relations with France

The aim of my policy toward France is to cooperate with this country in the most effective way for the future prosecution of the war against England. For the time being France will have the role of a "nonbelligerent power" which will have to tolerate German military measures on her territory, in the African colonies especially, and to give support, as far as possible, even by using her own means of defense. The most pressing task of the French is the defensive and offensive protection of their African possessions (West and Equatorial Africa) against England and the de Gaulle movement. From this task the participation of France in the war against England can develop in full force.

Except for the current work of the Armistice Commission, the discussions with France which tie in with my meeting with Marshal Petain will initially be conducted exclusively by the Foreign Ministry in cooperation with the High Command of the Wehrmacht.

More detailed directives will follow after the conclusion of these discussions.

2. Spain and Portugal

Political measures to induce the prompt entry of Spain into the war have been initiated. The aim of German intervention in the Iberian Peninsula (code name Felix) will be to drive the English out of the Western Mediterranean.

For this purpose:

a) Gibraltar should be taken and the Straits closed;

6) The English should be prevented from gaining a foothold at another point of the Iberian Peninsula or of the Atlantic islands.

For the preparation and execution of the undertaking the following is intended:

Phase I:

a) Reconnaissance parties (officers in civilian clothes) will conclude the requisite preparations for the operation against Gibraltar and for the taking over of airfields. As regards camouflage and cooperation with the Spaniards they are bound by the security measures of the Chief of the Foreign Intelligence Department.

b) Special units of the Foreign Intelligence Department in disguised cooperation with the Spaniards are to take over the protection of the Gibraltar area against English attempts to extend the outpost area or prematurely to discover and disturb the preparations.

c) The units designated for the action will assemble in readiness far back of the Franco-Spanish border and without premature explanation being given to the troops. A. preliminary alert for beginning the operation will be issued 3 weeks before the troops cross the Franco-Spanish border (but only after conclusion of the preparations regarding the Atlantic islands).

In view of the limited capacity of the Spanish railroads the Army will mainly designate motorized units for the operation so that the railways remain available for supply.

Phase II:

a) Directed by observation near Algeciras, Luftwaffe units at a favorable moment will conduct an aerial attack from French soil against the units of the English fleet lying in the harbor of Gibraltar and after the attack they will land on Spanish airports.

b) Shortly thereafter the units designated for commitment in Spain will cross the Franco-Spanish border by land or by air.

Phase III:

a) The attack for the seizure of Gibraltar is to be by German troops.

b) Troops are to be assembled to march into Portugal in case the English should gain a foothold there. The units designated for this will march into Spain immediately after the forces designated for Gibraltar.

Phase IV:

Support of the Spaniards in closing the Strait after seizure of the Rock, if necessary, from the Spanish-Moroccan side as well.

The following will apply regarding the strength of the units to be committed for Operation Felix:

Army:

The units designated for Gibraltar must be strong enough to take the Rock even without Spanish help. Along with this a smaller group must be available to support the Spaniards in the unlikely event of an English attempt at a landing on another part of the coast.

For the possible march into Portugal mobile units are mainly to be designated.

Luftwaffe:

For the aerial attack on the harbor of Gibraltar forces are to be designated which will guarantee abundant success.

For the subsequent operations against naval objectives and for support of the attack on tlie Rock mainly dive bomber units are to be transferred to Spain.

Sufficient anti-aircraft artillery is to be allocated to the army units including its use against ground targets.

Navy:

U-boats are to be provided for combating the English Gibraltar squadron, and particularly in its evacuation of the harbor which is to be expected after the aerial attack.

For support of the Spaniards in closing the Strait the transfer of individual coastal batteries is to be prepared in cooperation with the Army.

Italian participation is not envisaged.

The Atlantic islands (particularly the Canaries and the Cape Verde Islands) will, as a result of the Gibraltar operation, gain increased importance for tho English conduct of the war at sea as well as for our own naval operations. The Commanders in Chief of the Navy and of the Luftwaffe are to study how the Spanish defense of the Canaries can be supported and how the Cape Verde Islands can be occupied.

I likewise request examination of the question of occupation of Madeira and of the Azores as well as of the question of the advantages and disadvantages which would ensue for the naval and for the aerial conduct of the war.

The results of this examination are to be presented to me as soon as possible.

3. Italian offensive against Egypt

The employment of German forces will be considered ,if at all,only after the Italians have reached Mersa Matruh.But even then the use of German  air units will only be considered if the Italians will provide the nesscassry air basses.
The preparations of the Armed Services for operations in this theatre or in any other North Africa theatre of war will be made on the following basis:

Army:

One armored division (composition as already laid down) will stand by for service in North Africa.

Navy:

German ships in Italian ports which are suitable as troop ships will be coverted to carry the largest possible forces either to Libya or to North-West Africa.

Air Force:

Plans will be made for attacks on Alexandria and on the Suez Canal to close it to English warships

4.The Balkans

Commander-in-Chief  Army will be prepared, if necessary to occupy from Bulgaria the Greek Mainland north of the Aegean Sea.This will enable the German Air Force to attack targets in the Eastern Mediterranean and in particular those English air bases which threaten the Rumanian oil fields.

In Order to be capable of fulfilling all tasks and to keep Turkey in check, planning and march tables will assume the employment of an Army Group in a strength of about ten divisions. The use of the railway line running through Yugoslavia will not be assumed in planning the movement, the German Military mission in Rumania will be shortly reinforced to an extant about which I require advice.

In conjunction with the proposed land operations, Commander-in-Chief Air Force will prepare to post air force units to the southeastern Balkans and to set up an Air Force signal service on the southern frontier of Bulgaria.

The German air force mission in Rumania will be reinforced to the extant proposed by me.

Requests by Bulgaria for equipment for its army (weapons & ammunition) will be met sympathetically.

5. Russia

Political discussi9ons for the purpose of clafifying Russia's attitud in the immediate future have already begun. Regardless of the outcome of these conversations all preparations for the East for which verbal orders have already been given will be continued.

Further directives will follow on this subject as soon as the basic operational plan of the Army has been submitted to me and approved.

6. Landing in England

Since changes in the general situation may make it possible or necessary to revert to 'Undertaking Sealion' in the spring of 1941, the three brats of the Armed Forces will make every effort to improve in every way the conditions for such an operation.

7. Reports

I await reports from Commander-in-Chief on the operations laid down in this directive. I will then issue orders on the manner of execution and the timing of individual operations.

In the interests of security, special measures are to be taken to limit the number of those working on these plans. This applies particularly to the undertaking in Spain and to the plans relating to the Atlantic Islands.

(signed)
Adolf Hilter



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KEYWORDS: freeperfoxhole; history; hitler; operationfelix; samsdayoff; saturdaysymposium; veterans; wwii
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sym·po·sium : a social gathering at which there is free interchange of ideas

So now let's get on with the discussion. Pull up a chair or grab a spot on the floor around the virtual Foxhole Cabin and let's chat about "Should and/or could Hitler have taken Gibraltar and how might it have changed the war? "








1 posted on 06/18/2005 8:14:30 AM PDT by snippy_about_it
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To: Bigturbowski; ruoflaw; Bombardier; Steelerfan; SafeReturn; Brad's Gramma; AZamericonnie; SZonian; ..



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2 posted on 06/18/2005 8:16:14 AM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: All


Veterans for Constitution Restoration is a non-profit, non-partisan educational and grassroots activist organization.





Actively seeking volunteers to provide this valuable service to Veterans and their families.

Thanks to quietolong for providing this link.



We here at Blue Stars For A Safe Return are working hard to honor all of our military, past and present, and their families. Inlcuding the veterans, and POW/MIA's. I feel that not enough is done to recognize the past efforts of the veterans, and remember those who have never been found.

I realized that our Veterans have no "official" seal, so we created one as part of that recognition. To see what it looks like and the Star that we have dedicated to you, the Veteran, please check out our site.

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3 posted on 06/18/2005 8:18:40 AM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: snippy_about_it
Good morning Snippy.


4 posted on 06/18/2005 8:23:04 AM PDT by Aeronaut (2 Chronicles 7:14.)
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To: snippy_about_it; SAMWolf; All

Good morning!

Fine topic today .. my opinion is that without Spanish help Hitler couldn't have taken Gibraltar.

Churchill states in his memoirs that the British had a treaty dating back to the 1300s with Portugal which allowed British use of the Azores for naval bases, and they were prepared to use them in the event of the fall of Gibraltar.

However, Franco's intention was to keep Spain out of the war, meaning the Germans couldn't have attempted an assault from the landward side. I can't imagine a seaward assault being successful, and by 1941 the Crete operation had soured Hitler on large-scale airborne operations.

But the benefits would have been enormous. Churchill also writes about the difficulties inherent in bringing reinforcements for the Desert Army all the way around Cape Horn to the Suez Canal due to the presence of the Italian fleet in the Mediterranean - and this was even with British control of Gibraltar. Without it, holding Malta would have been even more difficult. Its fall would have opened the way for easier German supply to Africa, with all the danger to British forces and possessions in the Middle East that might have entailed.


5 posted on 06/18/2005 8:23:24 AM PDT by Colonel_Flagg (Ah, spring. Such as it is.)
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To: snippy_about_it
Hmm, interesting discussion. A bit of historical perspective -

Hitler (or at least some in the German High Command) did want to close the Straits of Gibraltar. In fact, preliminary negotiations took place with Franco on German troop movements through Spain, but Franco flatly refused and the plan was dropped.

Taking that into consideration, do we assume that further negotiations would have borne fruit and allowed German forces free passage through Spain, or do we assume that Spain would resist a German invasion?

6 posted on 06/18/2005 8:23:37 AM PDT by steveegg (Only to a MARXIST is a VOTE considered a POWER GRAB. (thanks Seaplaner))
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To: snippy_about_it; bentfeather; Samwise; Peanut Gallery; Wneighbor
Good morning ladies. Flag-o-Gram.


US Naval Observatory

7 posted on 06/18/2005 8:23:58 AM PDT by Professional Engineer (Got Flag?)
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To: snippy_about_it

On This Day In History


Birthdates which occurred on June 18:
1681 Feofan Prokopovich theologian, archbishop of Novgorod, westernizer
1799 William Lassell discoverer (satellites of Uranus & Neptune)
1809 Sylvanus William Godon, Commander (Union Navy), died in 1879
1839 William Henry Seward Jr, Brig General (Union volunteers), died in 1920
1877 James Montgomery Flagg illustrator "I want you" recruiting poster
1886 George Mallory England, mountain climber ("because it is there")
1901 Jeanette MacDonald actress/singer (When I'm Calling You)
1904 Keye Luke Canton China, actor (Kung Fu-Master Po, Gremlins-Grandfather (Mr. Wing))
1906 Kay Kyser Rocky Mount NC, orch leader (Kay Kyser's Kollege)
1908 Bud Collyer NYC, TV emcee (Beat the Clock, To Tell the Truth)
1910 E.G. Marshall actor (Defenders, Nixon, Absolute Power)
1913 Sammy Cahn lyricist (3 Coins in a Fountain)
1913 Sylvia Porter financial writer (Sylvia Porter's Money Book)
1915 Red Adair, oilman (fought oil fires)
1917 Richard Boone LA Calif, actor (Paladin-Have Gun Will Travel)
1926 Tom Wicker columnist (NY Times)
1937 Vitali M Zholobov cosmonaut (Soyuz 21)
1939 Lou Brock one-time baseball stolen base leader (St Louis Cards)
1942 Paul McCartney rocker, Beatles, writes silly love songs
1942 Rogert Ebert Urbana Ill, film critic (Siskel & Ebert at the Movies)
1952 Carol Kane Cleveland Ohio, actress (Dog Day Afternoon, Simka-Taxi)
1963 Bruce Smith NFL defensive end (Buffalo Bills)



Deaths which occurred on June 18:
0741 Leo III de Isaurier, Byzantine Emperor (717-41), dies
1291 Alfonso III, King of Aragon (1285-91), dies
1629 Piet Heyn, lt-admiral (Spanish silver fleet), dies in battle at 51
1669 Abraham Crijnssen, Swiss admiral, conquered Suriname, dies
1853 Branko Radicevic, Serbian poet (1st Serbian Uprising), dies
1880 John Sutter, US colonist (gold discovered on his land), dies at 77
1916 Helmuth J L von Moltke, German chief general of staff, dies at 67
1916 Max Immelmann, German pilot, "Immelmann Turn" (WW I), killed
1936 Maxim Gorki, [Alexei M Peshkov], Russian writer (Mother), dies at 68
1942 John Kubris, Czech resistance fighter, killed Heydrich, dies at 28
1945 Colonel Roberts, commandant 22nd regiment marines, dies in battle
1945 Simon B Buckner, US lt-gen/commandant of 10th Army, dies in action
1959 Ethel Barrymore, [Blythe], actress (None but the lonely), dies at 79
1974 Georgi Zhukov Russian Marshal (WW II), dies at 78
1975 Faisal Ibn Mussed Abdul Aziz Saudi prince, beheaded in Riyadh shopping center parking lot for killing his uncle the king
1982 Curt Jurgens actor, dies of an acute heart attack at 66
1991 Joan Caulfield actress (My Favorite Husband), dies of cancer at 69


GWOT Casualties

Iraq
18-Jun-2003 2 | US: 2 | UK: 0 | Other: 0
US Private 1st Class Michael R. Deuel Baghdad Hostile - hostile fire
US Staff Sergeant William T. Latham Walter Reed Medical Ctr. Hostile - hostile fire

18-Jun-2004 2 | US: 2 | UK: 0 | Other: 0
US Specialist Thai Vue Baghdad Hostile - hostile fire - mortar attack
US Private 1st Class Jason N. Lynch Buhriz [Diyala Prov.] Hostile - hostile fire



Afghanistan
A Good Day

http://icasualties.org/oif/
Data research by Pat Kneisler
Designed and maintained by Michael White


On this day...
0860 Swedish Vikings attack Constantinople
1155 Pope Adrian IV crowns Frederick I Barbarossa Roman-German Emperor
1178 Proposed time of origin of lunar crater Giordano Bruno
5 Canterbury monks report explosion on the moon (only such observation known)
1580 States of Utrecht forbid catholic worship
1583 Richard Martin of London takes out 1st life insurance policy, on William Gibbons. The premium was œ383
1682 William Penn found Philadelphia
1778 British Redcoats evacuate Phila

1812 War of 1812 begins as US declares war against Britain

1815 Battle of Waterloo; Napoleon defeated by Wellington & Blucher ("They came on in the same old way, and we sent them back in the same old way,"
Arthur Wellesley Duke of Wellington)

1822 Part of US-Canadian boundary determined
1822 Slave revolt leaders Denmark Vesey and Peter Poyas arrested in SC
1863 After long neglect, Confederates hurriedly fortify Vicksburg
1864 At Petersburg, Grant ends 4 days of assaults
1872 Woman's Sufferage Convention held at Merchantile Liberty Hall
1873 Susan B Anthony fined $100 for attempting to vote for President
1879 W H Richardson, a black inventor, patents the children's carriage
1898 Amusement pier opens, Atlantic City, NJ
1903 1st transcontinental auto trip begins in SF; arrives NY 3-mo later (Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?)
1934 US Highway planning surveys nationwide authorized
1936 1st bicycle traffic court in America established, Racine, WI
1940 Gen Charles de Gaulle on BBC tells French to defy nazi occupiers
1940 Winston Churchill urges perseverance so that future generations would remember that "this was their finest hour"
1942 Bernard W Robinson, becomes 1st black ensign in US Navy
1942 Eric Nessler of France stays aloft in a glider for 38h21m
1943 SS Police in Amsterdam sentence for 12 resistance fighter to death (Jewish, communists, homosexuality) at the census bureau
1945 William Joyce (Lord Haw-Haw) Brit radio traitor charged with treason
1948 National Security Council authorizes covert operations for 1st time
1948 UN Commission on Human Rights adopts Intl Decl of Human Rights
1953 Egypt proclaimed a republic, General Neguib becomes president
1956 Last of foreign troops leaves Egypt
1957 John Diefenbacker (C) takes office as PM of Canada
1959 1st telecast transmitted from England to US
1961 KBMT TV channel 12 in Beaumont, TX (ABC) begins broadcasting
1963 3,000 blacks boycot Boston public school
1968 Supreme Court bans racial discrimination in sale & rental of housing
1972 US Supreme Court, 5-3, confirms lower court rulings in Curt Flood case, upholding baseball's exemption from antitrust laws
1973 NCAA makes urine testing mandatory for participants
1976 NBA & ABA agree to merge
1977 Billy Martin & Reggie Jackson get into a dug out altercation
1977 Space Shuttle test model "Enterprise" carries a crew aloft for 1st time, It was fixed to a modified Boeing 747
1979 Pres Carter and Leonid I Brezhnev sign SALT 2 treaty
1980 C Shoemaker discovers asteroid #2891 McGetchin
1980 Mrs Shakuntala Devi mentally multiplies 2 13-digit #s in 28 sec
1981 Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart retires (replaced by Sandra Day O'Connor, 1st woman on high court)
1982 Voting Rights Act of 1965 extended by Senate by 85-8 vote
1983 7th Shuttle Mission-Challenger 2 launched-Sally Ride 1st US woman
1983 IRA's Joseph Doherty arrested in NYC
1984 Perth Observatory discovers asteroid #3541
1989 Comet Churyunov-Gerasimenko at perihelion
1989 Curtis Strange wins his 2nd US golf open
1991 Pres Zachary Taylors body is exhumed to test how he died
1991 SF Giant pitcher Dave Dravecky's cancerous left arm is amputated
1997 The Southern Baptist Convention called for a boycott of the Walt Disney Co., protesting what the convention called its gay-friendly policies.
1997 Sirhan Sirhan fails in his 10th bid for parole in the assassination of Sen. Robert F. Kennedy
1999 US House of Rep. defeats a measure for gun control, 280-to-147, and approved a proposal to allow the Ten Commandments to be posted on schoolhouse walls.
2000 Tiger Woods won the U.S. Open by a record 15 strokes.
2002 Gov. Jesse "the bald headed moron" Ventura (I-Mn.) announced he would not seek a second term
2004 European Union leaders sealed a hard-fought deal on a new constitution. It needs approval by all 25 member states before it can take effect, expected in 2007 (Well THAT worked out real well!)


Holidays
Note: Some Holidays are only applicable on a given "day of the week"

Egypt : Evacuation Day (1956)
US : Father's Day (Sunday)
US : Flag Week (Day 7)
US : Kids Fishing Day
National Count Your Money Day
National Splurge Day
National Dream Work Month


Religious Observances
RC : Commemoration of SS Mark & Marcellianus, martyrs
RC : Commemoration of St Ephrem, confessor, doctor
Ang : Commem of Bernard Mizeki, catechist, martyr in Rhodesia


Religious History
1464 Pius II led a brief 'crusade' into Italy, against the Turks. However, he soon became ill and died, before the rest of his allies arrived. Soon after, the three-centuries-old 'crusades mentality' among European Christians came to an end.
1781 The first Baptist church established in Kentucky was organized at Elizabethtown. (Kentucky was first visited by Baptist missionaries in 1772 when Squire Boone, brother of explorer Daniel Boone, began exploring the eastern Kentucky regions.)
1819 Birth of Samuel Longfellow, an American clergyman who composed the words to the hymn, 'Father, Give Thy Benediction.'
1830 Birth of Elizabeth Cecilia Clephane, an orphaned Scottish poet who penned two of the most haunting hymns in the English language: 'Beneath the Cross of Jesus' and 'The Ninety and Nine.'
1906 Birth of Gordon Lindsay, missions pioneer. In 1948 Lindsay and he wife Freda founded Christ for the Nations, an interdenominational foreign missions support agency.

Source: William D. Blake. ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH. Minneapolis: Bethany House, 1987.


NAZI UFOS TO ATTACK U.S.
Flying saucers hiding in secret Antarctic base

By MICHAEL FORSYTH

AMERICA faces invasion by an armada of Nazi flying saucers -- launched from a secret underground base in Antarctica where they've been housed since World War II!

That's the horrifying claim of a National Security Agency source, who says global warming is to blame.

"Because of excess greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, the Antarctic ice is rapidly melting -- depriving German scientists, SS officers and their families of their sanctuary,' declares the source.

"Their 'final solution' is to conquer America."

The source claims that images collected by U.S. spy satellites reveal that at least 420 of the menacing saucers, each about 90-feet in diameter, emerged from the now-partially exposed base and are hovering over the continent -- waiting to attack.

"Radio messages we've intercepted and decoded suggest that each saucer is packed with enough super-advanced weaponry to destroy 10 American cities," warns the source.

It's been rumored since World War II that German scientists designed and built flying saucers.

"Adolf Hitler desperately sought a superweapon that could guarantee him victory," explains historian Lawrence C. Wangler. "One of the many secret projects his scientists pursued was the creation of a circular aircraft that could lift off vertically.

"The project was led by Dr. Viktor Schuberger, who designed a craft that utilized a vortex to generate magnetic fields, causing levitation.

"A prototype tested on Feb. 19, 1945, attained an altitude of 45,000 feet, according to Schuberger's notes."

Success came too late for Hitler to win Word War II. But the twisted maniac did dispatch men and equipment to construct a fleet that could fight another day -- in Antarctica.

The Germans had already extensively mapped the continent and claimed it in the name of the Third Reich.

"In March 1945, just before the end of the war, two German U-boats left a port on the Baltic Sea -- reportedly taking with them top SS officers and key members of the flying- saucer research team, plus saucer designs and plans for a gigantic underground complex. It's widely believed that the submarines were bound for Antarctica."

According to the NSA source, it's more than a belief -- it's a fact.

"The theory up until now was that if we leave them alone, they'll leave us alone," he says. "But it looks like that uneasy truce is about to end."



Thought for the day :
"Nothing beats fun for having a good time"


8 posted on 06/18/2005 8:31:06 AM PDT by Valin (The right to do something does not mean that doing it is right.)
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To: snippy_about_it

Morning Snippy.

Could have?

At that point in the war,IMHO, the Germans could have. Even if Spain had not allowed access to the Germans I believe they would not have been able to prevent the Germans from grabbing Gibraltar. However, Hitler was looking to the East and without Spanish cooperation I don't think he really wanted to commit the forces or time to the effort.

Should have?

There was no plan for an "African Campaign" at the time so I believe it would have been more of a "prestige" blow to the Brits at the time. But once the Germans decided to bolster the Italians in North Africa, the closing of the straits to the Allies would have changed the entire African Campaign shifting the advantage to the Axis. In conjunction with the taking of Malta the Med would have become an Axis lake.


9 posted on 06/18/2005 8:32:11 AM PDT by SAMWolf (Why buy a product that takes 2000 flushes to get rid of?)
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To: snippy_about_it

((HUGS))Good morning, Snippy and everyone at the Freeper Foxhole.


10 posted on 06/18/2005 8:32:20 AM PDT by E.G.C.
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To: Aeronaut

Morning Aeronaut.


11 posted on 06/18/2005 8:32:28 AM PDT by SAMWolf (Why buy a product that takes 2000 flushes to get rid of?)
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To: snippy_about_it

Good morning Snippy!

Had Hitler taken Gib, it would have been disastrous for Malta and North Africa, as the Brits would have had to ship everything via the Cape Horn/Suez route. Doenitz's subs would have had a field day. Raeder's capital ships could also have been far more effectively utilized with Gib as a safe harbour.

As for his actually TAKING Gib: well, that's an interesting question, one for those more versed in hypothetical situations than I.


12 posted on 06/18/2005 8:33:11 AM PDT by Don W (Whatever has form-man or machine-has mortality. It is only a matter of time)
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To: snippy_about_it

Gooood Morning.

Now I can go try some of this "food" that I've been hearing so much about. I hear it's all the rage in Hollywood, everyone simply EVERYONE is trying it.


13 posted on 06/18/2005 8:33:35 AM PDT by Valin (The right to do something does not mean that doing it is right.)
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To: SAMWolf

Hey Sam.


14 posted on 06/18/2005 8:42:54 AM PDT by Aeronaut (2 Chronicles 7:14.)
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To: snippy_about_it; SAMWolf; Professional Engineer; msdrby; Wneighbor; PhilDragoo; alfa6; radu; All

Good morning everyone.

15 posted on 06/18/2005 8:44:25 AM PDT by Soaring Feather
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To: Colonel_Flagg
my opinion is that without Spanish help Hitler couldn't have taken Gibraltar.

The only help that Hitler needed was for Spain to look the other way for a few weeks.

16 posted on 06/18/2005 9:12:54 AM PDT by PAR35
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To: snippy_about_it
The Atlantic islands (particularly the Canaries and the Cape Verde Islands) will, as a result of the Gibraltar operation, gain increased importance for tho English conduct of the war at sea as well as for our own naval operations. The Commanders in Chief of the Navy and of the Luftwaffe are to study how the Spanish defense of the Canaries can be supported and how the Cape Verde Islands can be occupied.

Gibraltar could have (and should have) been taken. The islands provide a more difficult question, since it would, at that point, have been difficult for either side to supply them. A determined British attack could have taken them, but German U-boats and perhaps surface ships operating out of Gib would have made life very difficult.

If they remained in Spanish/German hands, they would have been exposed to raids from the British surface fleet and would have faced the continual threat of invasion. In the end, however, they may not have been worth the cost to England at that stage of the war.

17 posted on 06/18/2005 9:20:00 AM PDT by PAR35
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To: Colonel_Flagg

Very interesting. Thanks Colonel. Obviously today's topic was Sam's idea. I don't have enough knowledge to participate, however, I expect to learn much from the conversations. :-)


18 posted on 06/18/2005 9:25:26 AM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: steveegg

Thanks steveegg. Your two questions lead me to a third.

Can we assume that the Germans could have taken it regardless of what Franco wanted?


19 posted on 06/18/2005 9:29:44 AM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: Professional Engineer

Hey, I've seen that place.


20 posted on 06/18/2005 9:30:14 AM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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