Posted on 05/18/2007 8:13:13 AM PDT by traviskicks
Quixotic presidential candidate Ron Paul landed himself in a bit of hot water - make that a boiling cauldron - for remarks he made in last week's GOP debate suggesting that America's containment of Saddam Hussein led to 9/11.
Responding to a question about whether Paul was blaming America for the 9/11 attacks, he stated: "They don't come here to attack us because we're rich and we're free. They come and they attack us because we're over there."
Mayor Giuliani interjected in high dudgeon sending the crowd, and later conservative pundits, to their feet. But what Ron Paul said is, in fact, utterly uncontroversial and utterly true. Nowhere did Paul suggest ala Ward Churchill that the U.S. deserved to be attacked, he merely sought to explain the motives of those who attacked us. His explanation was certainly incomplete and a bit ham-handed, but it was not inaccurate or blatantly false.
In fact, if Ron Paul was "blaming the victim" as Mayor Giuliani indignantly implied, then he is in the company of such notorious America-haters as the current President of the United States, the former Assistant Secretary of Defense, the editorial boards of the Weekly Standard and Wall Street Journal, and many, many conservative pundits and intellectuals.
Cause & Effect
In a now famous November 6, 2003 address, President Bush explicitly linked U.S. policy with the rise of Islamic terrorism:
"Sixty years of Western nations excusing and accommodating the lack of freedom in the Middle East did nothing to make us safe -- because in the long run, stability cannot be purchased at the expense of liberty. As long as the Middle East remains a place where freedom does not flourish, it will remain a place of stagnation, resentment, and violence ready for export."
This "accommodation" takes many forms, from the generous subsidies to the Mubarak regime in Egypt to the protection of the Saudi "royal" family and other Gulf potentates, first from Saddam Hussein and now from Iran.
In fact, the entire neoconservative argument for "regional transformation" rests on the notion that the prevailing political order in the Middle East - a political order sustained by American patronage and protection - has nurtured the conditions for bin Ladenism and must therefore be overturned.
Paul Wolfowitz - hardly a blame-America-firster - defended the removal of Saddam Hussein explicitly on the grounds that it would assuage one of bin Laden's grievances. In an interview with Vanity Fair the former Assistant Defense Secretary said that U.S. forces stationed in Saudi Arabia had "been a source of enormous difficulty for a friendly government. It's been a huge recruiting device for al Qaeda. In fact if you look at bin Laden, one of his principle grievances was the presence of so-called crusader forces on the holy land, Mecca and Medina."
Wolfowitz was correct, of course. In a 1998 fatwa signaling his jihad against America and the West and in interviews, bin Laden cited the stationing of troops in Saudi Arabia (necessary for containing Saddam) and the supposed depredations visited upon Iraq by the U.S. through sanctions and the no-fly-zones among his principle grievances. More significantly, America's support for "infidel" regimes led bin Laden to conclude that only by striking the "far enemy" (the U.S.) could he sufficiently weaken American support for the "near enemy" regimes of Saudi Arabia and Egypt, making them easier targets. This initially put him at odds with his number two, Ayman al Zawahiri, who wanted to focus the jihadist firepower on Middle Eastern governments.
On a more transactional level, American support for anti-Soviet forces in Afghanistan is widely understood as have playing an instrumental role in the formation of al Qaeda. Pakistan's intelligence service routed American arms and Saudi money to radical forces in Afghanistan to beat back the Soviet invasion. The beneficiaries of this covert subsidy included Osama bin Laden and many of the "Arab Afghans" volunteers who would later form the nucleus of al Qaeda.
Lastly, opinion polls in the Middle East routinely portray a region bristling against American policies and influence (though not, it should be noted, with unrestrained hostility for Americans as a people). Throw in radical Islamic teachings, which reinforce the need to cleanse "holy soil" of any infidel influence, and you have the toxic stew from which al Qaeda sips.
Different analysts weight these two factors - radical theology and nationalistic umbrage - differently. I've argued earlier that this interpretative divide is largely fictitious, that radical Islam is both a reaction to American policies and an expression of Islamic fundamentalism. But it is simply counter-factual to suggest that America's Middle East policy has played no role whatsoever in the terrorist threat we're now confronting.
So why was Paul savaged?
I believe it's because many conservatives, especially since 9/11, have become increasingly unwilling to internalize the simple maxim that government actions have consequences - many of them unintended, some of them negative. Conservatives are rightly skeptical of grand government initiatives aimed at curing various domestic ills. Yet some have become convinced that the same bureaucrats who cannot balance the budget will nonetheless be able to deftly manage the political outcomes of nations half a world away. The tendency is so acute that it led the libertarian blogger Jim Henley to wryly observe that for some "Hayek stops at the water's edge."
Furthermore, understanding why bin Laden struck at America is not the same as excusing the murderers of 9/11 anymore than observing that Hitler desired Lebensraum excuses his invasion of Poland. Knowing your enemy is the all-important first step to defeating him.
Indeed, Paul has done the debate a fundamental service by raising the complex issues of cost and benefit when it comes to America's Middle East policy. You can argue, as former National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski did, that a few "stirred up Muslims" was worth the price of driving a defeated Soviet Union out of Afghanistan. You can also argue, as the Bush administration has done, that 9/11 was not a serious enough event to merit a substantial rethinking of our relationship with Saudi Arabia. You can even claim that more, not less, intervention in the Middle East is what is required to bring about needed change.
What you cannot seriously argue is that the world is a "consequence free" zone in which U.S. actions can never catalyze harmful reactions.
American policy cannot be held hostage to the umbrage of religious fanatics, but we should pursue our policies with the clear-eyed understanding that government is a blunt instrument and that bureaucrats in Washington are not all-knowing sages capable of fine-tuning events and people in far away countries to precisely accord with our interests.
Indeed, beneath his awkward syntax, Ron Paul was making a serious point: that less intervention in the Middle East would ultimately improve American security. If Mayor Giuliani disagrees, he should at least explain why.
Wasn’t the first WTC attack an Al Qaeda operation?Not necessarily. From what knowledge I have of the attack it was based on a cell that had more issues with America's support for Israel.
He should read this article:
The textbooks paint an alarming picture of a regime that divides the world between "good" and "evil" forces that are destined to clash until a victory is reached. Since the evil and arrogant West seeks to destroy Iran, a war is inevitable. Iranians are hence tasked with a religious mission of fighting "evil" until the latter's final eradication, or, until the "good" camp is wiped out. In Ayatollah Khomeini's words, reproduced in an eleventh-grade textbook: "Either we shake one another's hand in joy at the victory of Islam in the world, or all of us will turn to eternal life and martyrdom.
The Iranian school textbooks reveal a frightening vision of an extremist regime that prepares its school children for another such episode -- an Armageddon-like global war against the West.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20070214-093525-3000r.htm
The Ayatollah's words make it quite clear -- either they win or they win anyway.
But for the most part it’s their own chose.
But Ron Paul is NOT right...Our first FOUR Presidents had problems with ATTACKS from the Barbary Pirates (MUSLIMS) who would take our ships, make slaves of the “Christian” seaman, and demand ransoms and “protection” bride monies.
Jefferson finally had to send the military to put an end to it. (do the math, this was BEFORE we invaded Iraq in the early 1990’s) and it was UNPROVOKED....The Muslim leaders of the day said it was the duty to make “war” with the “Chritain” nations of America, England, Demark, etc”.
In 1799, Winston Churchill wrote of the Mullahs desire to kill ANY western leader to avenge the Crusades...
Ron Paul is wrong....we have more than three hundred years of Muslims attacking the west JUST becuase they think it the right thing to do.
“Ron Paul=Idealogue”
Ron would like that. It beats ideologue every time.
I think it’s a good time to unsubscribe from TCS’s mailing list, if they’re jumping on Paul’s “Blame America” bandwagon.
I do not disagree. But what he said implies that it was the sole cause or even the major cause of it and I call BS on that. It would happen whether we were there, had been there or not.It's certainly not the *sole* cause. Islamic fundamentalists *do* hate the American way of life and it's cultural influence on the ME. That's undeniable. However, people underestimate the rationality of AQ and other terrorist groups. They are *evil* but at the same time they are also calculating and patient. They know America is the strongest player in the region and that to assert their own influence they will have to displace America as the regional power.
No, isn’t their own choice. That’s why there are libertarians and liberals.
I agree. But what I saw on Tuesday night was not that interpretation. He came across like Michael Moore to me.
You are right. Paul misses the big picture that many of the other candidates and most conservatives grasp ---> the Islamic radicals want to establish a world-wide caliphate regardless of whether we are in Iraq or staying locked up at home twiddling our thumbs waiting for them to come here.You misinterpret Paul's statement. Again it's a matter of cause and effect. Where did radical Islam come from? Two groups mainly, Iranians against the shah and Saudis fighting against the Ruskies. There is a common denominator there. US projection of power(overthrowing Mossadegh and funding radical Islamists to take out the Ruskies).
He is partially right and partially, dangerously wrong.
See post eleven and answer your own question.
“No, isn’t their own choice. That’s why there are libertarians and liberals.”
So let me get this right: Social conservatives are forcing people to live a certain way? Not the last time I checked. For the most part social conservatives just want to ban abortions and maintain marriage. Other than that, they just wish to promote moral values.
Again, most of the choses are still left to everyone.
Paul’s right as far as the reason OBL and company gave for attacking us. He’s very wrong to believe it’s the real reason (not to mention utterly naive).
See my post #34 on that thread. I’ve been up since 4AM, Ultra. :o)
I agree. But what I saw on Tuesday night was not that interpretation. He came across like Michael Moore to me.Hey even a stopped clock is right twice a day ;)
He is partially right and partially, dangerously wrong.Okay, this is what I'd like an American politician say for once: "You know we screwed up, our actions have contributed to the current set of problems, but radical Islam is now a threat to us and we must respond, without repeating the mistakes of the past".
Are people really this uninformed or are they just pretending to be?
I admit to a certain inability to view them as anything but irrational demons, especially considering what happened to Daniel Pearl, Nick Berg, those 4 Blackwater employees hanging off the Fallujah bridge, etc. etc. I had a friend that bought the farm on 9/11. He had an office in the basement of the Pentagon in the section that was hit. He left behind a wife and two kids, one of whom is a "special needs" child.
I don't quite see why I have to understand them. I want to defeat them; vanquish them; destroy them utterly.
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