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To: Polycarp
All these things are true and are bothering me.

What is also bothering me is I can't in good conscience tell someone not to use birth control when having so many children is impossible in our society for the average person, no matter what religion they are.

It is also nearly impossible to have a lot of childre in poor countries.

I'd be much more open to the message of the church if they told people just how they can have just an average standard of living with say five kids using their own resources.

I've really agonized about this issue pro and con, and it only seems to work for families who have good educations and better-than-average jobs where the wife can stay home.

When my ex-husband got out of high school, he got a good blue collar job and with his insurance and benefits, we could conceivably have raised 10 children with a little scrimping with no outside or government help. For the life of me, I look at our young kids today in ANY country and can't imagine how any of them could manage anything close to that in our modern world.

If people would just tell people HOW to do things rather than preach at them NOT to do it, I would feel better about the whole thing. Yes, we are all dependent on God and I have had tremendous faith that He would provide at times, but telling whole societies not to use birth control and God will provide surpasses my faith quotient.

Can I just ask you if you personally had married at 20 or so in America, what kind of job would you look for to support your family, with no Government help?

Back when people lived on farms and grew their own food, it worked a lot better. In industrial societies, it is hard to imagine how everybody could have a basic lifestyle and a lot of kids if they don't have a super job. I know some manage to do it, but all people just can't unless they live in a closed community with a lot of support such as the Mormons and Hassidic Jews who have lots of kids and manage rather well.

My granddaughter's father had a catholic family of six, it broke down, and four of the children had to be adopted by relatives. I suspect financial strain in a community without good jobs had something to do with it. Alcohol also played a part. They were what you would call average catholics, not elite catholics with super educations. Granddaughter's father ending up jumping in front of a semi, so all this really hits close to home.

8 posted on 09/03/2003 3:28:35 PM PDT by Aliska
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To: Aliska
when having so many children is impossible in our society for the average person

This is what the world claims, but this is not a Christian perspective. I have close friends with only a high school education who have 12 children, all homeschooled.

He started out in construction, learned carpentry, now builds furniture in his basement shop for a living. He supports a wife and 12 children, 2 now in college, working with his hands.

They have never had health insurance, but everyone is still doing just fine. They make do with far less material things per child than 99% of American families, but I defy you to find happier, better adjusted or better mannered or better educated kids.

Eight of the twelve play either violin, viola, or cello. Dad has taught himself how to make them himself.

The oldest two perform in the local adult symphony, and 4 more perform in the local youth symphony. The oldest two both earned full scholarships to Indiana University of Pennsylvania for music degrees.

I have seen the hard cses. I have seen the proof that it is NOT impossible to have a large fmily, even folks who entered a profession straight out of high school.

Do not despair of God's Providence.

The only thing lacking for large families to thrive is the willingness to sacrifice to make it happen and reject the materialistic obsession of this world.

12 posted on 09/03/2003 3:57:07 PM PDT by Polycarp (PRO-LIFE--without exception, without compromise, without apology.)
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To: Aliska
Aliska,

I empathize with your concerns, but...

Are you aware that switching from baby formula to breast-feeding alone can halve the number of children a woman has? And marriage does not mean that the couple must have sex constantly. Periodic abstinence may be advisable. 12 children may be too many, but three or four are healthy. (2 seems the best for wealth.)

But mostly, people do need to put their trust in God to provide. The chastisement may be horrifying: Within decades, European civilization will be in ruins, if something doesn't change fast, because no-one is having babies. They will be overrun by chaotic hordes of Muslims, follwed by an absolute collapse of the financial system. At current birth rates, the population of Italy in 2300 will be THREE! The modern, western economy is built on growth. The response, to import millions of aliens, is devestating both to our economy, and the economies of the nations that we receive them from. But that is the reason why we don't have such a dire population problem.

Overpopulation exists in East Africa, and Asia. Not in the Western world. We, as a society, desperately NEED people to make babies, and most people who consider it a luxurious option end up working to make it harder on those who have children. ("Why should I pay for their schools?" "Why should they get family sick leave?" "Why shouldn't dependents pay tax?") They don't know that their 901K plans, mutual funds and social security policies are worthless if there is not a next generation to provide the economic growth.
13 posted on 09/03/2003 4:01:55 PM PDT by dangus
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To: Aliska
if they told people just how they can have just an average standard of living

How do you make folks understand that they don't need that bigger house, that third or fourth or fifth TV, that second, third and fourth computer, those designer clothes, that "best" college, that expensive vacation, those braces (11th Commandment: Thou Shalt Not Have Crooked Teeth?), the better car/third car/ fourth car, another VCR, a satellite dish, the boat, the membership at the golf club/gym/spa, etc etc etc?

Anyone can have an adequate standard of living if they change their attitudes and realize that 90% of what they thought were necessities were actually false gods.

14 posted on 09/03/2003 4:04:06 PM PDT by Polycarp (PRO-LIFE--without exception, without compromise, without apology.)
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To: Aliska
My daughter is now 25 and her and her husband have 5 children. He has an associate degree and is a warehouse foreman making maybe 30-35K per year. They get by OK. Yes, it's tight and they can't keep up with the Joneses. My daughter homeschools. She sews clothes and buys other clothes at the Goodwill stores. I think the lack of more bothers my son-in-law more than my daughter. They may have some small govt bennies. If they didn't have any, I think they'd still get by OK.

I see other families like this too.

Bottom line: It can be done. Sometimes a little help is needed from family and friends. In the vast majority of cases where family & friends are helping, govt assistance is not needed either.

My wife and I wish we had had the other 4-8 children we should have had. But for the contraception mentality...We could have gotten by with no problem, just would have had to give up a few things...designer clothes, satellite TV, nights out clubbing, new cars sooner than necessary, college or professional sporting events. It can be done and what is given up normally is not missed.
22 posted on 09/03/2003 5:11:27 PM PDT by RaginCajunTrad (ask not what your government can do for you; ask your government not to do anything to you)
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To: Aliska
I can understand your thinking, but what you are doing is still creating a situational morality.

I'd also ask if the Vatican's (and up until 1930, all of Christendom's) teachings are such a disaster in the making, how we've managed to get this far in spite of them.
31 posted on 09/03/2003 7:44:06 PM PDT by Conservative til I die (They say anti-Catholicism is the thinking man's anti-Semitism; that's an insult to thinking men)
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