Posted on 08/27/2003 1:54:34 PM PDT by Akron Al
[Another Freerepublic parody has been posted today, this one at the Splendor of Truth blog site. Unable to defend the very strange words of Greg Popcak, his friends in the NFP cult blog world have gone on the attack. Many folks of all Catholic stripes have denounced Popcak. Rod Dreher of National Review, Patrick Madrid of Envoy, CatholicCitizens.org and even Sinkspur have expressed their misgivings concerning the Popcak novelty of brothers charting their sisters. (e.g. "Ick" in the words of Dreher). Although Madrid later pulled his comments from the Envoy blog.]
[Given the impossible task of defending Popcak's strange words, the followers of Pope Popcak I and his NFP Cult have instead tried to turn this into a dispute between neo-Catholics and traditional Catholics. However, it is not such a dispute. The Freerepublic Catholic community rarely agrees on anything. But they do agree on this. Popcak's statements are very, very weird and scary.]
Popcak in his own words followed by the FR parody:
"I am aware of some families where the brother may chart his sister's temperatures for her, or even some cases where the mother shares her own NFP chart (minus the coitus record, of course) with the intent of acquainting the young men and women of the house with NFP. I also know some families who object to this idea on privacy or modesty grounds."
"You will have to decide whether having boys record their sister's or mother's temperatures is an option for your family, but as long as the person whose chart it is (the mother or sister) is not terribly opposed to the idea (you really have to respect her opinion on this), I feel favorably toward the idea because it decreases the chances that your young teens will eroticize their sexuality."
http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/archives/003953.php#003953
|
FreeRadTradPublic.com "Freeper Creepers" Posted on 08/22/2003 2:36 PM PDT by HolierThanPope Unbelievable sexual comments found in church Documents Looking through the source documents for that Koran-kissing Pope John Paul II's icky theology of the body I found these disgusting sexual references in the "Song of Solomon". This is a scandal and obviously a work of the devil. [4] Your neck is like the tower of David, built for an arsenal, whereon hang a thousand bucklers, all of them shields of warriors. [5] Your two breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle, that feed among the lilies. [6] Until the day breathes and the shadows flee, I will hie me to the mountain of myrrh and the hill of frankincense. [7] You are all fair, my love; there is no flaw in you. [8] Come with me from Lebanon, my bride; come with me from Lebanon. Depart from the peak of Ama'na, from the peak of Senir and Hermon, from the dens of lions, from the mountains of leopards. [9] You have ravished my heart, my sister, my bride, you have ravished my heart with a glance of your eyes, with one jewel of your necklace. [10] How sweet is your love, my sister, my bride! how much better is your love than wine, and the fragrance of your oils than any spice! [11] Your lips distil nectar, my bride; honey and milk are under your tongue; the scent of your garments is like the scent of Lebanon. [12] A garden locked is my sister, my bride, a garden locked, a fountain sealed. [13] Your shoots are an orchard of pomegranates with all choicest fruits,henna with nard, TOPICS:Catholic; Current Events; General Discusssion; Click to Add Topic
[ Report Use of Charitable Language | Bookmark ]
"Your two breasts are like two fawns" This obsessing on women's body parts and comparisons to animals will lead those Vatican II followers further into degradation and will lead to the acceptance of bestiality.
Posted on 08/22/2003 4:36 PM PDT by LidlessEyesRus
"You have ravished my heart, my sister, my bride" Openly endorsing incest. This just goes too far in promoting this ravishing lust of your sister and making her your bride. Have they no shame.
Posted on 08/22/2003 5:01 PM PDT by EmptyChair
"honey and milk are under your tongue;" What kind of sick kinky sexual practices are these. This totally unorthodox promotion of placing honey and milk under your lovers tongue. What were they thinking making these profoundly weird references. This type of comparison has no place in the church at all. "Your navel is a rounded bowl that never lacks mixed wine. Your belly is a heap of wheat, encircled with lilies." Posted on 08/22/2003 6:03 PM PDT by StaringIntentlyAtOthers
Where is the imprimatur for these works? And now I see Mark Shea and Fr. Rob Johansen defending the wording in these texts quoting the Fathers of the Church. These so-called conservative voices are leading people astray and further more there both chubby, so there!. There is no way that God would use romantic or sexual language to parallel the life of the Trinity or to compare human love and the relationship between God and man, you know YUCK! These false prophets of Catholic sexuality with references to God are lying teachers who will send many to hell!!! --For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, 2nd Timothy 4:3
Posted on 08/22/2003 6:15 PM PDT by BentOnTrent
Looking further into that document I found this. "His cheeks are like beds of spices, yielding fragrance. His lips are lilies, distilling liquid myrrh."
Posted on 08/22/2003 6:45 PM PDT by SchismaticFanatic [ Post Rely | Private Reply | View Replies | Report Use of Charitable Language ]
These people are just sick, sick, sick. "We have a little sister,and she has no breasts.What shall we do for our sister,on the day when she is spoken for?"
Posted on 08/22/2003 7:02 PM PDT by RadTradAndGlad
|
If you like this post you can credit Fr. Rob for the inspiration, otherwise it is all my fault.
Posted by Jeff at August 22, 2003 06:21 PM | TrackBack
Especially considering that 100% of Catholics who I've seen comment agree that the source of this whole debacle, Popcak's sibling NFP charting recommendation, is simply wrong.
Such a statement creates an appearance of even-handedness, but misses the reality. Most of the statements in your post were on target, but I'd like to see some documenation of this claim:
The extreme trads who reject NFP out of hand are wrong. It is morally licit in certain grave circumstances.
Where are these "extreme trads"? I have never seen 1 single post ever on FR which claimed that NFP was not "morally licit in certain grave circumstances." Nor have I ever seen such a claim in any traditional publication like Latin Mass magazine or The Remnant. As far as I am aware, every traditionalist I have ever read has emphasized the need for "grave reasons."
In contrast to the dearth of "extreme trads" claiming what you say they do, Chris Ferrara wrote an article not long ago in which he documented many of the absurd claims being made by the NFP promotion people. There are many, many examples of non-traditional Catholics who promote:
- NFP for any reason,
- who claim that NFP is superior,
- who claim that NFP is necessary for true "personalist" marriage,
- who claim the requirement of grave reasons no longer applies,
- who claim that those who accept children from God are "providentialists"
- who claim that conceiving children without using NFP is "less than human" and "animal-like."
So it's not really even-handed to equate a non-existent error that's wholly imaginary with an entire industry promoting the opposite error.
Had he done so I, at least, would never have commented on the topic. But when he started defending it, that was just too much.
This is just too predictable. The old saying should be updated to "Accusation of anti-semitism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." These days if you're not accused of being anti-semitic, you must not be doing your job.
"Explain to your sons that as God is giving them the gift of their sexuality, He is asking them to spend the next several years learning how to use that gift properly. Part of that means that if he marries, he will be responsible for working with his wife to determine God's will for their lives, including when to have children and how many children to have. These are decisions that need to be made every month in collaboration with his wife and with prayer. After he is married, part of his responsibility will be to help his wife do something called charting, which means that he will write down the different signs that tell how healthy his wife is and when they could have a baby. I am aware of some families where the brother may chart his sister's temperatures for her, or even some cases where the mother shares her own NFP chart (minus the coitus record, of course) with the intent of acquainting the young men and women of the house with NFP. I also know some families who object to this idea on privacy or modesty grounds."
To me, this sounds like NFP as a way of life.
Explain to your sons that as God is giving them the gift of their sexuality, He is asking them to spend the next several years learning how to use that gift properly.
After he is married, part of his responsibility will be to help his wife do something called charting..
These are decisions that need to be made every month...
I'm not going to spend my time looking it up, but I have seen extreme trads here (HDMZ? UR? I can't recall) and elsewhere dismiss the entire NFP concept as an evil invention of Paul VI and a grave departure from prior Church teaching.
Here's an example:
From http://www.trosch.org/chu/nfp.html
Due to the many inquires regarding why Human Life Foundation, Father Paul Marx, and the Couple to Couple League are listed on the Web page entitled, Anti-Catholic "Catholic" organizations and publications, I have prepared this response. It should be understood that anyone acting in opposition to the creative act and intent of God is not only offensive to God but also against the ultimate good of mankind.
At 11:19 AM 10/2/1998 -0400, you wrote: I'm absolutely astounded by your list. Why would you put HLI on the list? I'm open to hearing your answer.--Lorraine
Fr. Marx promotes the "contraceptive mentality." A grave sin which is equated with sodomy. The "contraceptive mentality" goes directly against the prime commandment, "Be fertile and multiply." — fr. david
Thank you for proving my point. On the one hand we have Greg Popcak with his extremely bizarre ideas, ideas which he admits he is only passing along from other NFP teachers who openly promote such strange nonsense. On the other hand, we have the imaginary error of "extreme trads," of which it is impossible to document even a single example.
Take your supposed example. First of all, this is not someone I've ever heard of before. They have never been published in any traditionalist magazine as far as I am aware. So if you go searching for internet nutcases, you would think that you could find just about anything. The reality, however, is that this internet site is right on target. They attack only 1 thing: using NFP with a contraceptive mentality. Here are some quotes.
Natural Family Planning may never be used with the contraceptive mentality (Humanae Vitae by Pope Paul VI). It may only be used when their is grievous reason to do so. To use NFP without proper reason is a mortal sin regardless of what you may have been told by any person, even a priest. No moral permission can ever be granted for the use of NFP with the contraceptive mentality.So the reality is that even the most extreme example you could locate on the internet does not support your accusation of error by traditionalists. They are simply defending the truth. Your on-the-one-hand-on-the-other-hand approach is not truly being fair, it is simply equating truth and falsehood.Dear Lorraine, The teaching of natural family planning without also teaching that it may be used only under certain limited conditions to temporarily, or under unusual conditions permanently, avoid birth is to teach the contraceptive mentality. Humanae Vitae expressly states that natural rhythms may only be used to avoid birth for grave reasons.
RESPONSE: The teaching of NFP and H.V. is not the problem. If the teaching is both morally advertised and presented then it is up to the couple to make the decision whether or not they are willing to offend God. The primal command of God must always be obeyed, "Be fertile and multiply." The exception concerning a woman needing a major operation with a preliminary period of her building up her physical condition in order to have the operation and a needed period of recuperation following the operation could be seen as valid reason for using NFP. There are of course other valid reasons for using NFP. The Couple to Couple League and others should a long time ago have drawn up a representative list of valid motivations for using NFP. The pope and bishops bear even greater responsibility in this regard.
The issue that started all this was Popcak's strange admonition to have brothers chart their sisters' cycles. It was one imprudent suggestion in a 200 page book.
Frankly, I tend to side with you; I think NFP is promoted far too often without the message I place front and foremost, which I have already posted here. Maybe I'm one of the few "trad" NFP instructors, in that I overemphasize the points you and I make here, and that I assume other NFP courses (CCL, Mother Teresa's nuns, HLI's efforts, etc.) do likewise.
That could well be the case, but unless extreme trads have sat through entire NFP courses, they have no way of knowing. Even sitting through a pre-cana or engaged class where NFP is promoted is not sufficient to evaluate whether the "grave reasons" issue is addressed in the context of the subsequent NFP course work. And the methods used to promote NFP to get folks in the door may well be silent on the "grave reasons" issues because they know it is not widely understood and needs to be addressed carefully and in depth inside the classroom. The error of extreme trads is their assumption that NFP is always taught in a moral theology vaccuum, which simply is not the case.
On the other hand, we have the imaginary error of "extreme trads," of which it is impossible to document even a single example.
"Extreme trads" consistently assume and/or contend that NFP is taught without teaching that there must be a grave reason for having recourse to it.
Unless they have personally sat through an NFP course or read the CCL self instruction manual, they have no basis for this accusation whatsoever! And I know for a FACT that this issue IS covered extensively in the CCL manual, as well as the NFP classes I personally teach or have attended. I have not attended a full CCL course, so I cannot say how strongly they emphasize the "grave reasons" issue. Yet neither can an extreme trad claim that CCL does NOT teach the "grave reasons" if they have not sat through a class.
Promotional materials, talks by NFP instructors or promoters, websites, etc. do NOT provide an objective basis to assert that "the NFP cult teaches it in a contraceptive manner."
That is the objection I have to the trads.
Will wonders never cease. Hopefully no one will bookmark this thread to use as evidence against you in the future.
the minimum stupidity content on any thread is mandated at 15%, and threads will be removed that don't abide by this quota
Finally we are given the reason for this phenomenon -- it's actually an FR rule! No other reason could explain its consistency.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.