Posted on 08/27/2003 1:54:34 PM PDT by Akron Al
[Another Freerepublic parody has been posted today, this one at the Splendor of Truth blog site. Unable to defend the very strange words of Greg Popcak, his friends in the NFP cult blog world have gone on the attack. Many folks of all Catholic stripes have denounced Popcak. Rod Dreher of National Review, Patrick Madrid of Envoy, CatholicCitizens.org and even Sinkspur have expressed their misgivings concerning the Popcak novelty of brothers charting their sisters. (e.g. "Ick" in the words of Dreher). Although Madrid later pulled his comments from the Envoy blog.]
[Given the impossible task of defending Popcak's strange words, the followers of Pope Popcak I and his NFP Cult have instead tried to turn this into a dispute between neo-Catholics and traditional Catholics. However, it is not such a dispute. The Freerepublic Catholic community rarely agrees on anything. But they do agree on this. Popcak's statements are very, very weird and scary.]
Popcak in his own words followed by the FR parody:
"I am aware of some families where the brother may chart his sister's temperatures for her, or even some cases where the mother shares her own NFP chart (minus the coitus record, of course) with the intent of acquainting the young men and women of the house with NFP. I also know some families who object to this idea on privacy or modesty grounds."
"You will have to decide whether having boys record their sister's or mother's temperatures is an option for your family, but as long as the person whose chart it is (the mother or sister) is not terribly opposed to the idea (you really have to respect her opinion on this), I feel favorably toward the idea because it decreases the chances that your young teens will eroticize their sexuality."
http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/archives/003953.php#003953
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FreeRadTradPublic.com "Freeper Creepers" Posted on 08/22/2003 2:36 PM PDT by HolierThanPope Unbelievable sexual comments found in church Documents Looking through the source documents for that Koran-kissing Pope John Paul II's icky theology of the body I found these disgusting sexual references in the "Song of Solomon". This is a scandal and obviously a work of the devil. [4] Your neck is like the tower of David, built for an arsenal, whereon hang a thousand bucklers, all of them shields of warriors. [5] Your two breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle, that feed among the lilies. [6] Until the day breathes and the shadows flee, I will hie me to the mountain of myrrh and the hill of frankincense. [7] You are all fair, my love; there is no flaw in you. [8] Come with me from Lebanon, my bride; come with me from Lebanon. Depart from the peak of Ama'na, from the peak of Senir and Hermon, from the dens of lions, from the mountains of leopards. [9] You have ravished my heart, my sister, my bride, you have ravished my heart with a glance of your eyes, with one jewel of your necklace. [10] How sweet is your love, my sister, my bride! how much better is your love than wine, and the fragrance of your oils than any spice! [11] Your lips distil nectar, my bride; honey and milk are under your tongue; the scent of your garments is like the scent of Lebanon. [12] A garden locked is my sister, my bride, a garden locked, a fountain sealed. [13] Your shoots are an orchard of pomegranates with all choicest fruits,henna with nard, TOPICS:Catholic; Current Events; General Discusssion; Click to Add Topic
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"Your two breasts are like two fawns" This obsessing on women's body parts and comparisons to animals will lead those Vatican II followers further into degradation and will lead to the acceptance of bestiality.
Posted on 08/22/2003 4:36 PM PDT by LidlessEyesRus
"You have ravished my heart, my sister, my bride" Openly endorsing incest. This just goes too far in promoting this ravishing lust of your sister and making her your bride. Have they no shame.
Posted on 08/22/2003 5:01 PM PDT by EmptyChair
"honey and milk are under your tongue;" What kind of sick kinky sexual practices are these. This totally unorthodox promotion of placing honey and milk under your lovers tongue. What were they thinking making these profoundly weird references. This type of comparison has no place in the church at all. "Your navel is a rounded bowl that never lacks mixed wine. Your belly is a heap of wheat, encircled with lilies." Posted on 08/22/2003 6:03 PM PDT by StaringIntentlyAtOthers
Where is the imprimatur for these works? And now I see Mark Shea and Fr. Rob Johansen defending the wording in these texts quoting the Fathers of the Church. These so-called conservative voices are leading people astray and further more there both chubby, so there!. There is no way that God would use romantic or sexual language to parallel the life of the Trinity or to compare human love and the relationship between God and man, you know YUCK! These false prophets of Catholic sexuality with references to God are lying teachers who will send many to hell!!! --For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, 2nd Timothy 4:3
Posted on 08/22/2003 6:15 PM PDT by BentOnTrent
Looking further into that document I found this. "His cheeks are like beds of spices, yielding fragrance. His lips are lilies, distilling liquid myrrh."
Posted on 08/22/2003 6:45 PM PDT by SchismaticFanatic [ Post Rely | Private Reply | View Replies | Report Use of Charitable Language ]
These people are just sick, sick, sick. "We have a little sister,and she has no breasts.What shall we do for our sister,on the day when she is spoken for?"
Posted on 08/22/2003 7:02 PM PDT by RadTradAndGlad
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If you like this post you can credit Fr. Rob for the inspiration, otherwise it is all my fault.
Posted by Jeff at August 22, 2003 06:21 PM | TrackBack
You can tell this is a dead time, newswise, in the Catholic Church. A 48-hour issue is dragging itself out for who know's how long.
Polycarp, what do you have to say about all this?
"Hey, is this an early birth present for me?" "No," says the Mrs. "I'm so stressed out by the baby and the older kids, the Register recommended it. God help me." Hmmm. The Register. OK, at least it not a heap of new age or dissenter crap by Eugene Kennedy or Gary Wills. That's a relief. So she opens up the envelope and pulls it out.
What name is there in big letters on the top?
GREGORY POPCHAK
The title, GOD HELP ME
God help me...
Second Parenting Fair Planned
The second annual Catholic Parenting Fair will be held on Saturday, September
20, 2003 from 9:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. The Fair will be held at LaSalle High School
(11199 SE Fuller Road) in Milwaukie. Gregory Popcak will be the Keynote speaker. He
is a nationally recognized psychotherapist and author of five books on marriage and
family life issues. Mr. Popcak will spend the morning speaking about topics of parenting
with grace and creating an exceptional marriage while raising children.
During the afternoon sessions from 1:00 - 3:00 p.m., local educators will be
presenting on a variety of parenting topics. This year's topics include: Scripture,
Spirituality and Family Life; Surviving (and even benefiting from) the Stress in Our Lives;
Saving Sex for Marriage --- How to talk to your Teen; Rediscovering Playtime with Your
Children; Stepfamilies: Pitfalls and Possibilities; and Single Parenting: Going It Alone.
There will also be a variety of pro-family organizations in attendance that will
have educational materials displayed.
Gregory K. Popcak (pronounced POP-chak) is a nationally recognized
psychotherapist, speaker, and author of five books on marriage and family issues. As
founder and director of the Pastoral Solutions Institute, he provides a nationwide
telephone counseling service to help Christians apply their faith to tough marriage,
family, and personal problems. He received a Bachelor of Arts degree in Psychology
and a Bachelor of Arts degree in Theology from the Franciscan University of
Steubenville and a Masters in Social Work (clinical specialization) from the University of
Pittsburgh. In addition to his expertise in several models of marriage and family
therapy, he works extensively with individuals who suffer from depression, anxiety, and
other stress related problems as well as those adults who are recovering from the
trauma of childhood abuse.
The cost of the Parenting Fair is $15.00 per person and includes the morning
Keynote session, two afternoon sessions and a boxed lunch.
I think it is clearly imprudent to advise siblings to chart their sisters'/mothers' cycles, even strange to suggest it (I'm being cautious in my terminology, obviously.)
Beyond that, I wish both sides would stand down so this pathetic feud could end. Those parodying Free Republic must realize they are driving their readers to this website, even if that is contrary to their intent.
Otherwise, I'll just re-post my usual comment, in case some new Catholic lurkers have been driven here by the Popcak defenders. (If these concepts are taught first and foremost in NFP, it is not likely to become "cultish" as the poster of this thread describes NFP supporters):
We teach there are 4 main reasons for having recourse to NFP.
1--Physical/ mental health---a pregnancy could kill you or so physically impair you as to prevent your fulfillment of your duties in your state in life---NOT because of a widening wasteline or drooping skin! Or psychological health, i.e., mom would literally have a nervous breakdown if she became pregnant---not because she "just couldn't stand being home with the little kids all day without the personal fulfillment of her professional job..."
2--Financial constraints---your child will starve if you have another. Wanting a bigger house or designer SUV just does not cut it!
3--work on the mission fields by one or both spouses that would proclude having children temporarily
4--active persecution or war---i.e., you or your child likely to die by coercive abortion, in concentration camp, in acts of war, etc.
Clearly we say these reasons must be SERIOUS, not trivial. Only the couple and their confessor can truly decide what truly constitutes grave reason.
We've had couples sit through my talk on this subject and literally say, "Gee, we thought we were being good Catholics just for deciding to use NFP. Now we realize we don't even have grounds for recourse to NFP," then tell us a month or two later they're pregnant.
NFP vs Contraception
Spacing children may be a desirable goal that does not violate God's laws in certain serious situations such as those outlined above. But the means of achieving the goal differ.
One is intrinsically evil (abortion, abortifacient contraception, barrier methods, sterilization) while one is morally neutral (Natural Family Planning.
In one, an act is performed (sex) but its natural outcome is artificially foiled.
In the other, no act is performed (simple abstinence during fertile times) so there IS no act, therefore the practice is morally neutral.
It is then the intention of using NFP that constitutes its relative moral licitness or illicitness.
If NFP is used in a selfish manner, it too can be sinful.
If it is used only in grave circumstances, it is not sinful.
The difference is real.
Dieting (decreasing caloric intake, the "act" of NOT eating) is a moral and responsible means of losing weight to maintain the body's health.
Bulimia (the ACT of eating, them vomiting) is rightly called an eating DISORDER.
An ACT is performed (eating in this case) and its natural outcome (nutrition) is foiled by expelling the food from the body.
Likewise contraception is a disorder. An ACT is performed (sex) and its natural outcome (procreation) is foiled by expelling the sperm or egg or both (abortifacient contraceptives) from the body.
Contraception is to NFP what Bulimia is to dieting.
But just as dieting can be misused (anorexia) so too can NFP be misused in a sinful manner.
Finally, regarding infertility, if the sterility of the couple is through no act or conscious fault of their own, their marital relations cannot possibly be immoral, since it is not their intent to be sterile.
Yet many the Church married, who were thought for decades to be sterile, have indeed borne children in their later years. So it would be awefully presumptuous of any Church to disallow an "infertile" couple to marry.
I love good humor.
But this is just vicious.
On the one hand, one point in a 200 page book has been blown way out of proportion in the author's zeal to promote a Godly alternative to the culture of death contraceptive mentality.
Those criticizing and blowing out of proportion this one (obviously imprudent!) suggestion in this book were probably the same ones who lambasted critics of Michael Rose's "Goodbye, Good Men" who took tiny pieces of Rose's book that appeared erroneous and blew them completely out of proportion.
On the other hand, Popcak should just admit that section was imprudent.
And his defenders should be ashamed of themselves for their childish lampooning of what is valid criticism. His remarks and these further defenses make NFP supporters look cultish, just as this thread says. And as an NFP instructor, I resent that immensely.
Its hard enough to get society to understand and embrace NFP as a bridge out of the culture of death contraceptive mentality and into Abandonment to Divine Providence. But when the NFP supporters themselves go to such lengths as these, NFP loses credibility among both the culture at large and among orthodox Catholics!
NFP is NOT an end, it is NOT a way of life! It is to be the exception, under grave circumstances, to a Catholic family life of being open to LIFE! It is a bridge or ladder out of the contraceptive mentality and a tool to be used in grave circumstances which make complete openness to life imprudent.
This idea of instilling this NFP obsession even to our children, belies a misunderstanding of the proper role of NFP in marital life. It is to be an exception, not the rule. It is not to ever be a lifelong way of life!
The extreme trads who reject NFP out of hand are wrong. It is morally licit in certain grave circumstances.
Likewise, those who ardently promote NFP as a way of life, even forcing it upon their children in an impudent manner, and failing to emphasize first and foremost that NFP is only to be used for grave reasons, are also wrong.
Both sides here are guilty.
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